“Even Your Auditor General Seems To Have Done His Sums On The Back Of An Envelope.”
I am reposing this from 2013 because I just heard on the radio, the often repeated nonsense, that SkyTrain has a greater capacity than light rail.
The SkyTrain light metro system doesn’t and it never did.
From Thales News Release concerning the $1.47 billion signalling upgrade of the Expo and Millennium Lines.
When the programme is fully implemented, the Expo Line will be able to accommodate 17,500 passengers per hour per direction, and the Millennium Line will be able to handle 7500 passengers per hour per direction, a 32% and 96% increase respectively.
I would like to remind everyone that the Toronto streetcar system in the 1940’s and early 50’s, operating coupled sets of PCC cars offered capacities of over 12,000 persons per hour per direction on selected routes! Modern light rail lines can handle 20,000 pphpd or more.
Fast backward to 1983: from an article in Modern Tramway.
It was known since 1983, that ALRT, a renaming of ICTS for the sale to Vancouver (locally called SkyTrain) had less real capacity than modern light rail at the time!
The advent of the modern articulated tram has increased this capacity by more than double and in Ottawa there light rail vehicles are operating on a system that will offer a capacity of 24,000 pphpd!
The above quote came from a European transit expert, when I asked him to comment on BC’s Auditor General’s claim that “SkyTrain and not light rail was the best option because of its greater capacity at similar cost. I apologize for again questioning the AG’s findings, but the AG’s Department is so far off the mark, so wrong that, clarification is essential.
When a blunder is so vast, it must be pointed out and dealt with and quickly.
Capacity is a function of headway and a modern light rail car cost less than a married pair of SkyTrain cars and if LRT can be built at one half, or one third, or one quarter of that of SkyTrain, modern light rail can provide more capacity than SkyTrain, at a cheaper cost!
It is that simple!
British Columbia’s Auditor General, must readdress this issue because of the erroneous calculations and claims about SkyTrain, which at first glance, seems to have been done on the back of an envelope.
Translink Practical Capacity 2019
*Vehicle type Total Capacity
Expo & Millennium Lines MKI 68 passengers
Expo & Millennium Lines MKII 108 passengers
Expo & Millennium Lines MKIII 113 passengers
Canada Line 144 passengers*
Waterfront to Commercial-Broadway on Expo Line
1995 7,500 passengers per hour per direction
2001 10,000 passengers per hour per direction**
2007 12,000 passengers per hour per direction***
2009 13,800 passengers per hour per direction***
2010 15,000 passengers per hour per direction***
2019 16,380 passengers per hour per direction****
39 trains per hour
2000 ultimate capacity of 15,000 pphpd UTDC
2010 ultimate capacity of 25,700 pphpd Bombardier
2018 ultimate capacity of 26,000 pphpd Bombardier
2020 ultimate capacity of 27,500 pphpd Alstom
“When the programme is fully implemented, the Expo Line will be able to accommodate 17,500 passengers per hour per direction, and the Millennium Line will be able to handle 7500 passengers per hour per direction, a 32% and 96% increase respectively.” this figure came from Translink. in 2019
2023 “By 2029, we expect to be able to serve about 20% more customers on Expo Line, and 50% more on Millennium Line during the busiest times of the day: by Translink
Confedertion Line
OC Transpo say:
The City of Calgary limited by signalling technology and power supply constraints to 24 trains per hour
Vancouver currently has two rapid transit systems; the SkyTrain and the Canada Line. A third system, the Evergreen line is also planned as an extension to the SkyTrain system. All three systems can be considered as Light-Metro with full automation and unmanned train operation (UTO), although the SkyTrain and Evergreen technologies are also referred to as Advanced Rapid Transit (ART). The technologies are based on short trains running in full automatic mode with short headways or intervals which allow them to provide significantly greater performance and capacity than other similarly sized systems. Skytrain technology requires full segregation and is operating at capacity, which now entails a costly expansion due to smaller platform sizes.
The following table provides transit operating costs for a variety of mainly US based systems for which the same data is collected annually and analysed by the US FTA. The table shows marginal savings for subways compared to LRT. Also shown, and based on the same calculations, is the equivalent cost for Vancouver’s SkyTrain. Costs for the Canada Line are not yet available
MBTA LRT $210
Minneapolis LRT $168
Houston LRT $236
Pittsburgh LRT $301
MUNI LRT $216
MTA NYCT SUBWAY $163
CTA SUBWAY $145
BART SUBWAY $249
WMATA SUBWAY $264
MBTA SUBWAY $178
Vancouver SkyTrain Automated Light-Metro $94
Average Cost Per Revenue Vehicle Hour
LRT $226.2 SUBWAY $199.8 SkyTrain $94
it is unlikely that the ridership will exceed predictions as the corridor is already highly developed and constrained with little possibility of development to the north.
* https://www.translink.ca/-/media/translink/documents/plans-and-projects/managing-the-transit-network/tspr/tspr_2019_rail_definitions.pdf
** https://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tcrp/tcrp90v1_cs/Vancouver.pdf
*** https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/awards/pdfs/2012/F8_ExpoLineUpgradeStrategyVancouver.pdf
****https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/transportation-infrastructure-projects/surrey-langley-skytrain/july-announcement-2022/business-case-and-appendices/appendix_d_ridership_memo.pdf
-https://www.bcgreen.com/~samuel/green/GREER_Rep-SkyTrain_April_12_1999.pdf
-https://app06.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/tc/2009/11-18/04-Rail%20System%20Study%20Document%201.pdf
Zwei replies: I see our Translink communications chap is at it again, using TransLink’s News Releases as fact. Sorry.
So much misinformation.
first off, the Evergreen line was the uncompleted section of the millennium Line as was planned for the Broadway Lougheed Rapid Transit Project. SkyTrain was so expensive they had to build it in two sections, with the name Evergreen line to camouflage the fact.
Secondly TransLink does not include provincial subsidies when comparing operating costs and we know that in 1993, the operating subsidy was $157.7 million, more than the combines bus and trolleybus operation.
Thirdly, TransLink computed their ALRT/ART capacities on all seats filled and standees at 8 persons per m/2 giving larger numbers. The MK.5 cars have slightly higher capacities due to the fact that they have full open vestibules. I must restate, there has not been a major redesign of the ART cars since first built., thus the capacity touted by TransLink is not very reliable.
Forthly, the Capacity of one Hyundai/Rotem Canada line car is, according to ROTEM is 163 persons. or 326 persons per 2 car train.
I again must restate, no one believes Translink’s numbers, especially the operating costs as no one has bought the system in an open bidding process, simply because Skytrain is too expensive to build, too expensive to operate and too expensive to maintain, when compared to other companies product.
Again, a correction, Calgary is resignalling their system for 90 second headway’s through the downtown section.
TransLink has bamboozled you, but you are not alone, they have grifted metro Vancouver and the province.
It is always with amusement to see how your TransLink zeitgeist continues.
As Mr. Zwei has stated so many times; “no one buys your SkyTrain”.
I know first hand that many of your SkyTrain claims are inventions, rather than applications and with knowledgeable people overseeing the choice of transit, your SkyTrain fails and fails badly. This is why Bombardier and Lavalin resorted with “success fees”, to sell the system to simple country folk.
Your simple country folk do not need success fees and are easily swindled out of their money or maybe success fees have been paid and no one has cared enough to check.
So as long as your simple folk keep planning for SkyTrain, I guess Alstom will still produce it, but with Vancouver the only customer, you will continually get ever more dated trains as they are not spending a pfennig in development.
C Train Approx. 247 total passengers @ 6 p/m2
SkyTrain 2 p/m2
Canada line 3 p/m2
mr cow say SUBWAY 1.8 p/m2
ultimate capacity 32000 pphpd if 90 second frequency*
C Train 4 train totaling 800 passengers per ride
but 4 min frequency today 12000 pphpd
can max 3 min frequency 16000 pphpd
TTC to day
1 line 3 min frequency 21600 pphpd
can 2.5 min frequency 25920 pphpd
ultimate capacity …?
O Train
line 1 day 5 min 10,700 passengers pphpd
ultimate capacity can 1 min, 45 sec frequency 22,000 pphpd*
so far LRT max 22,000 pphpd
SUBWAY max 80.000+ pphpd
so far SkyTrain max 27,500 pphpd
2007 someone does math?
108 sec frequency SkyTrain mk1 186 car mk2 32 = $94 per car 218 car = $20,492 Cost Per all in Revenue Vehicle Hour
3 min frequency TTC Rocket 6 car = 120 Car $180 per car = $23,976 Cost Per all in Revenue Vehicle Hour
4 min frequency C Train SD200 8 car = 120 Car $226.2 per car = $27,144 Cost Per all in Revenue Vehicle Hour
@Legoman0320 do all your operating cost include the same things.Not all operating costs are the same. For example, Pittsburgh’s LRT includes long term capital costs as payments into operating costs.
The State of Pennsylvania won’t provide things like stable long term funding for operations or capital works grants (something American states are supposed to do but increasingly aren’t), so the individual operations make up for this with investment bonds and T-Bills. The yearly interest payments on the loans for these costs are then included as part of the operating budget. The crash in 2008 was the primary reason that many LRT line’s in the U.S. suddenly had huge drops in operating budgets to cover these capital interest payments, operations were significantly slashed. Portland and quite a few other operators have yet to recover from these financial losses..
Part of the capital funding for both Calgary’s Green Line LRT and the western portion of the Valley LRT in Edmonton are funded by not provincial grants but loans. Monies to be paid back to the Government of Alberta over the next decade. That also comes out of the operating budget.
Part of the Skytrain operating budget doesn’t include 3rd party operating costs that other transit properties do include like, certain providers of maintenance for complex tools like wheel lathes but are included Translink’s main administration budget under administration servicing contracts.
In Ottawa for many, many years, the snow removal and shoulder maintenance budgets of the Transitway Network wasn’t included in the operating costs but included as part of the roads budget. The Region of Ottawa-Carleton use to brag how inexpensive the Transitway was to maintain compared to rail based systems.
I suspect that there are quite a few costs that are either not included or it is very old data. If the Skytrain was really that cheap to operate compared to LRT, far, far, far more transit operations would be using it and Alstom as the tech’s newest owner, would be promoting the HELL out of it.
Zwei replies: Quote: “If the Skytrain was really that cheap to operate compared to LRT, far, far, far more transit operations would be using it and Alstom as the tech’s newest owner, would be promoting the HELL out of it.” BINGO!
Another glaring example of how expensive the operating technology for the Skytrain and Skytrain LIM operations actually are is that Detroit’s people mover which uses LIM propulsion is going to use scrapped cars from the TTC’s Line#3, the Scarborough RT. It’s cheaper for them to use scrap parts and older systems from an out of service LIM line than to contact Alstom and get new equipment. That says a lot about not only its capital costs but it’s true operating costs. Using Toronto’s garbage is cheaper and more efficient in operations than buying new from Alstom.
Zwie replies: I have heard that Detroit is interested in some of the later MK.1 ICTS/ALRT cars, probably the Milano’s.
@Legoman0320 even the company installing the new signaling system says the maximum capacity WILL only be 17,500 pass./hr/dir. once the new system is fully installed on the Expo Line and 7,500 pass/hr/dir. on the Millennium Line. That’s with the new 5 section Mk. 5 trains. Right now it’s 15,000 on the Expo Line and 4500 on the Millennium Line.
Now anything above 13,500 on the Expo Line (90% capacity) would be extremely unpleasant, traveling beyond 5 minutes in those conditions, will drive away over 90% of choice riders.
Any operating frequency less than 109 seconds (the current limit) will require an extensive and expensive testing regime with Transport Canada and the B.C. Ministry of Transportation approvals, plus a lot of infrastructure upgrades, most of which haven’t been budgeted for yet.
2008 skytrain 102 million
12,000 pphpd
V costs x # train X hours =Vehicle maintenance costs
$94*20*450,000=$3.38 million in skytrain mk 1/2 maintenance costs
Rail maintenance costs?
Employee and a Administration?
Infrastructure Up keep?