Our friend Mr. Haveacow, predicted this some years ago and there were many who pooh-poohed this. I even had a local politician warning me not to spread misinformation, with a hint of legal proceedings.
Why so touchy on the subject?
It looks like TransLink and the Mayor’s Council on Transit are trying to hide the fact that part of the Expo line extension to Langley, includes increasing capacity of the Expo Line from 15,000 pphpd to 17,5000 pphpd. Part of this capacity upgrade includes new signalling for the Expo Line ($1.49 billion contract with Thales) and as Mr. Cow has mentioned many times, all the switches on the Expo Line must be changed to higher-speed switches or turnouts. A longer switch is needed to reduce the radius of the curvature of the switch needing the concrete guideway be altered to accommodate the new switches and this is going to be very, very expensive.
Multiply the cost of this one switch replacement project, with the number of switches on the Expo Line and one will see instantly that this will be extremely costly, yet the NDP Government, TransLink and the Mayor’s Council on Transit will not include this cost with the advertised cost of $4.01 billion, 16 km, Expo line extension to Langley!
The question I ask is; “What will be the real cost of Surrey – Langley Expo Line extension, because it is certainly not $4.01 billion?”
Maybe $5 billion and counting! No wonder TransLink is on the stump begging for more tax money!
King George SkyTrain Station closing for 6 weeks
King George Station in Surrey, B.C. on Monday March 25, 2024. (CityNews Image)
Essential maintenance work is forcing the closure of the King George SkyTrain Station in Surrey for six weeks beginning at the end of April.
TransLink explains the station will close to passengers starting Saturday, April 27.
During the six weeks of repairs, there will be no SkyTrain service to or from King George Station, TransLink says. The Expo Line will temporarily end at Surrey Central Station.
“Some of the work will includes removing parts of the rail to replace what’s called a turnout, and that’s a mechanical device that helps guide the trains from one track to another. Over time, these components, over the years, need replacement, and this section of the track, actually, has been in use since the station itself first opened 30 years ago. So, it’s in need of some maintenance and some repair and some upgrades,” TransLink spokesperson Thor Diakow explained Monday.
He says the full-station closure is “required to complete these important upgrades as efficiently and safely as possible.”
“In addition to the turnout work, we’re also doing some multiple infrastructure upgrades in and around King George Station while this work’s happening so we can make the most efficient use of the time,” Diakow explained.
“This includes things like cable installations, elevator inspections, doing some asset repairs around the station, and also some deep-station cleaning.”
The station is expected to reopen in mid-June.
“We just don’t have a firm date because sometimes these things, they can get delayed. But we just want to give people enough of an advanced notice. That’s why we’re sending the bulletin out today, even though the work doesn’t start for just over a month,” Diakow told CityNews.
Bus service to, from King George Station
Buses will continue to serve King George Station, TransLink explains, but with some changes; Additional buses will run every 15 minutes between King George and Surrey Central stations from 6 a.m. and 9 a.m. on weekdays, and routes that normally end at King George will stop at the station and then extend northbound to terminate at Surrey Central.
TransLink says buses that include a stop at King George will maintain their regular stops and routes.
“Obviously people still rely on carsharing and the parking lot there — the parking lot will be open but there will be some delays in the area because of the proximity to the construction. So we’re working very closely with the City of Surrey and carsharing companies to make sure we can accommodate people during that time. So there will still be access to Whalley Boulevard off that area, the taxis will still be present there,” Diakow said.
Staff will be available to help passengers at King George Station, TransLink says, and signage for bus bay changes will be installed.
“We’ll have staff present to assist travellers if they need help to know where they’re going,” Diakow explained.
“Customers who normally travel on the SkyTrain between King George and Surrey Central stations should build in about 15 minutes of extra travel time.”
6 weeks to do one turnout, wow, I think there’s more than one being done. The issue really is what they are replacing these turnouts with. The same size or a higher speed turnout (larger radius curve). If it’s 6 weeks its more than likely a multiple unit replacement. If they are taking about cable replacement as well, that’s a big clue that the track geometry is changing. In simple terms, they are ripping everything out and starting over.
Step 1. Rip everything out and I mean everything!
Step 2. The simple fact that they don’t know when the work will be completed means at some point an assessment of most likely, the concrete base or cap,the final layer of structural concrete on the right of way structure is probably taking place. (the above grade Skytrain right of way isn’t a single piece of concrete, in many places it can be up to 3 individual reinforced concrete sections bolted together). They obviously have no idea of the caps’ actual physical or structural condition and aren’t making any assumptions. So inspect said concrete cap. Then repair, upgrade or outright replace said cap.
Step 3. Hopefully this has already been done!
3(a) Design new turnout geometry or geometries for multiple turnout replacement. The actual frog location and angeles including where everything will actually be located (the frog is a piece of track that determines the angle of the turnout, the lower the angle the longer the turnout or switch, actually is).
3 (b) Locate where your concrete plinths will be. These are essentially, closely spaced raised concrete boxes that the track sits on. This effectively raises the track, giving space underneath to locate cables and hardware. This type of track arrangement is common in LRT construction now and is generally easier in the long run than the just bolting the track to the base (cap) itself. However, that is up to Translink, I don’t know what there feelling on this will be. Their general lack of expeience in anything regarding modern LRT may mean no plinths will be used at all. This design step will also includes where the 3rd rail’s new power system conections and cabling mounts will be.
3(c) Locate where the new sections of the third rail will actually be plus it’s connection to the power system and the signaling/control system. All this must match where the previously located power and signal/control conector mountings are. The mounting of the hardware for the new signaling/control system hardware must actually fit and or space must be left there for it and have enough room to be replaced with the existing modules if you haven’t got the new system yet. This isn’t a simple process!
3(d) Locate extra space for future cabling or extra cabling needs, including extra track devices like angel plates, track monitoring systems or emergency braking systems like Ottawa’s Indusi, control system.
3(e) Locate space for the 4th rail (Induction Rail) its power system and signal/control connectors, monitor systems control modules and its associated mounting and bases as well as its power and signal/control connectors (absolutely critical for the Skytrain)
WHAT IS AMAZING IS A LARGE PROPORTIONS OF STEP 3 ISN’T NECESSARY WITH LRT SYSTEMS, THIS WHY THEY ARE MUCH CHEAPER TO BUILD AND MAINTAIN!
Step 4. Start to build everything you designed and planned to do in Step 3.
4(a) Lay, mount and secure rails, making sure the track gauge remains constant.
4(b) Lay, mount and secure frogs, turnout points plus diverging rails. Connect turnouts to other track sections or to other turnouts as needed. Test track guage.
4(c) Drill holes into the baee for all equipment bases as well as mounts for 3rd and 4th rails, track power, control/signaling system hardware bases and connector mounts. A slow and ardious process, that you don’t want to screw up.
4(d) Install equipment mounts and bases, again check track guage and equipment clearances, very carefully. Mount turnout motors. Install 4th rail control system modules, again check clearances.
4(e) Install power and signal/control system cabling and connectors. Test turnout motors.
4(f) Install 3rd rail.
4(g) Install 4th rail (induction rail) and connect to power and monitor contol systems. Install final control system hardware.
4(h) Test everything! This step can take weeks!
AGAIN, A LARGE PROPORTIONS OF STEP 4 ISN’T NECESSARY WITH LRT SYSTEMS, THIS WHY THEY ARE MUCH CHEAPER TO BUILD AND MAINTAIN!
Step 5. First test trains, check physical clearances. Assess hardware and software integration. Higher speed tests are next and after a certain amount of testing is complete, whatever Transport Canada and the B.C. Ministry of Transportation have historically required, regular operations begin but monitoring must continue.
THIS ISNT A SIMPLE PROCESS, I REALLY WISH IT WAS!
Zwei replies: This week Translink is on the stump for more money and I was actually allowed to talk to a reporter on radio but all he said, TransLink told him it wasn’t a big deal. I tried to explain the need for larger radius switches but he did not comprehend.
Replacement Frog switch is under the rail replacement program. Replace the running rails, rail pads and Switches. No Mention of replacing the reaction rail or third or fourth rail. Skytrain in operation only been one instance of 1 fail(Switch 47) in service. Replacing 4 switches at king George. Switch 56-59. And the Switch 1-6 in waterfront will be getting new motors on March 30th.
2008 Report SkyTrain upgrades mention replacement and upgrade of switches to allow for a greater speeds for them. Expo Line focus on switch upgrades at terminal stations and short turn stations.
Pocket tracks adequate day to day operations. Recommended Original *10-15 kmh to new maximum switch speed 20-30 kmh*.(I don’t remember the exact number.)
Well as you are not an engineer and Mr. Cow is, I will take his word over yours any-day. The switch replacement program was first mentioned back in 2019 and now to increase capacity larger radius switches must be used. This means major reconstruction of the guideway to allow a larger radius switch. Until you understand track geometry, I would take anything said by TransLink with a grain of salt.
The problem that you and your folks at TransLink are trying to hide is cost because the cost of the Expo Line extension is rapidly increasing and TransLink’s revenue stream is diminishing, hence the fare increases. TransLink is fudging on the cost of the extension as now only the guideway to langley will be $4.01 billion, with the track, OHE and stations as add-ons (still in negotiation). This means the cost will be at least $4.5 billion, without the OMC#5.
There are serious problems with the Broadway subway with subsidence and with concrete now topping $450 m/3, costs will only rise.
There are many other issues, but until the provincial election is over, I believe Eby will can this project, especially in the wake of the North shore $4 billion water treatment facility fiasco.
The Expo Line Extension to Langley is being planned strictly to get votes in the riding rich Surrey and Langley, other than that it makes no economic sense.
Mr haveacow say: steps of how they replace a switch.
I Post video Link of how skytrain maintenance crew replace the switch at Gateway station. Switch Number 50,51,52,53. You see remove the old switch and rails. Install high-speed switch like Mr haveacow said Last year. You can tell because the switch is longgated by 2 to 3 Meters longer. Compared to the previous switch, if you remember what that looks like. 2019 was the new signal system and operation center.(do COVID Implementation of increasing frequencies have been put off). Rail replacement program started in 2014 average 3 kilometers new rail each year + replacement of switches.
Please do not confuse programs or dates or work-related to the any project all can be confused reader/public of wrong information. I hope it’s not intentional wrong information?
It is obvious the person who calls his/herself legoman has never replaced a railway switch in his life. We are not talking Marklin Trains here, but a real railway switch.
If greater radius switches are used, means longer switches and that is a big headache for your track department as many issues tend to cascade down the track. Everything has to be precise and if not done properly, especially with your light metro system, problems will surface affecting operation.
It is so easy sitting in your armchair, offering a video here or some dubious information there, without really understand the issues involved.
As I read the item, they are closing the station for six weeks, which tells me some serious engineering is taking place. At home, our railway engineers can replace a mainline rail bridge in just over 48 hours, yet it is taking 6 weeks to replace a switch? Obviously much more is being done.
No I haven’t done any rail maintenance in my life. I don’t mean to copy or repeat with someone’s already answered the question. Clearly you didn’t read the article stating that they are doing simultaneous upgrades and maintenance to the station.
@Legoman, I did read the article. It’s what they aren’t saying that’s important.
You can’t make a turnout (switch) 2 to 3 metres longer without changing the angels of both the 3rd rail and the induction rail (4th rail).
Having worked with the CPR, in Toronto’s Agincourt Yard, actually doing track work, with the TTC in the subway, doing track work and as a student Lineman, on the streetcar network and as part of track work team at a railway museum (where everything had to be done by hand because in most cases we just didn’t have the heavyweight equipment that real railways have), it’s just simpler, cheaper and faster to tear out everything and rebuild in carefully managed steps.
The article mentioned cabling needing to be replaced. You can’t do that very easily, unless you tear out most of the track infrastructure first. You can see with the provided picture how little room there is to work with. You can’t leave sections of 3rd or 4th rail in place, if you are moving 100 to 110 pound rail segments around. That means every yard (3 feet) of rail segment weighs 100 to 110 lbs. Usually 10 yard long track segments at a minimum, for turnouts (the railways never went metric, they just use metric equivalents for old imperial distances). That means each track segment weighs in excess of 1000 lbs. Pieces of 3rd and 4th rail are going to get damaged during the construction process if you leave them around. They aren’t going to use giant spools of ribbon rail or have great big rail laying construction vehicles laying this down these turnouts. It’s in too tight a space, most of it will be very small maintenance vehicles or hand held equipment. Not to mention a whole lot of thermite welding or what used to be called “hot pot welding”.
I just heard privately (the person works for TransLink) that the Switch replacement program is going to be very costly and management is literally at its wits end, trying to figure how to fund it. They need several billions just to to do necessary maintenance to keep the lines operational.
The person also also said there are problems with the MK.5’s in that they need a lot more specialized maintenance and are problematic to work on. The person indicated that Alstom is none too responsive and basically told TransLink; “you wanted them and now you have them, live with it.”
Evidently it is a very touchy subject and the person’s read is that Alstom want to wash their hands of the system and there is a rumour that they may sell it to CRRC, to recoup loses.
He actually works for them, I wonder which department? He (I’m assuming it’s a he anyway) seems to know the content of the program but not the actual details of the process. This is a common problem with legacy rail systems do you build outwards (system expansion), build upwards (more service) or repair, improve and or upgrade what already exists . Especially when you don’t really have enough money to do one thing fully!
Zwei replies: I see him at funerals as his older brother is my age! Far too many funerals lately. He is retiring in a year and a half and he is “glad of it”!
I have always found with TransLink employees, the truth comes out after retirement. My neighboor is a retired bus driver and some of his stories are just hair raising. We both buy and sell vintage trains, as well. he is a Lionel person and I am a Marklin/ROKAL person.
6 weeks to do one turnout, wow, I think there’s more than one being done. The issue really is what they are replacing these turnouts with. The same size or a higher speed turnout (larger radius curve). If it’s 6 weeks its more than likely a multiple unit replacement. If they are taking about cable replacement as well, that’s a big clue that the track geometry is changing. In simple terms, they are ripping everything out and starting over.
Step 1. Rip everything out and I mean everything!
Step 2. The simple fact that they don’t know when the work will be completed means at some point an assessment of most likely, the concrete base or cap,the final layer of structural concrete on the right of way structure is probably taking place. (the above grade Skytrain right of way isn’t a single piece of concrete, in many places it can be up to 3 individual reinforced concrete sections bolted together). They obviously have no idea of the caps’ actual physical or structural condition and aren’t making any assumptions. So inspect said concrete cap. Then repair, upgrade or outright replace said cap.
Step 3. Hopefully this has already been done!
3(a) Design new turnout geometry or geometries for multiple turnout replacement. The actual frog location and angeles including where everything will actually be located (the frog is a piece of track that determines the angle of the turnout, the lower the angle the longer the turnout or switch, actually is).
3 (b) Locate where your concrete plinths will be. These are essentially, closely spaced raised concrete boxes that the track sits on. This effectively raises the track, giving space underneath to locate cables and hardware. This type of track arrangement is common in LRT construction now and is generally easier in the long run than the just bolting the track to the base (cap) itself. However, that is up to Translink, I don’t know what there feelling on this will be. Their general lack of expeience in anything regarding modern LRT may mean no plinths will be used at all. This design step will also includes where the 3rd rail’s new power system conections and cabling mounts will be.
3(c) Locate where the new sections of the third rail will actually be plus it’s connection to the power system and the signaling/control system. All this must match where the previously located power and signal/control conector mountings are. The mounting of the hardware for the new signaling/control system hardware must actually fit and or space must be left there for it and have enough room to be replaced with the existing modules if you haven’t got the new system yet. This isn’t a simple process!
3(d) Locate extra space for future cabling or extra cabling needs, including extra track devices like angel plates, track monitoring systems or emergency braking systems like Ottawa’s Indusi, control system.
3(e) Locate space for the 4th rail (Induction Rail) its power system and signal/control connectors, monitor systems control modules and its associated mounting and bases as well as its power and signal/control connectors (absolutely critical for the Skytrain)
WHAT IS AMAZING IS A LARGE PROPORTIONS OF STEP 3 ISN’T NECESSARY WITH LRT SYSTEMS, THIS WHY THEY ARE MUCH CHEAPER TO BUILD AND MAINTAIN!
Step 4. Start to build everything you designed and planned to do in Step 3.
4(a) Lay, mount and secure rails, making sure the track gauge remains constant.
4(b) Lay, mount and secure frogs, turnout points plus diverging rails. Connect turnouts to other track sections or to other turnouts as needed. Test track guage.
4(c) Drill holes into the baee for all equipment bases as well as mounts for 3rd and 4th rails, track power, control/signaling system hardware bases and connector mounts. A slow and ardious process, that you don’t want to screw up.
4(d) Install equipment mounts and bases, again check track guage and equipment clearances, very carefully. Mount turnout motors. Install 4th rail control system modules, again check clearances.
4(e) Install power and signal/control system cabling and connectors. Test turnout motors.
4(f) Install 3rd rail.
4(g) Install 4th rail (induction rail) and connect to power and monitor contol systems. Install final control system hardware.
4(h) Test everything! This step can take weeks!
AGAIN, A LARGE PROPORTIONS OF STEP 4 ISN’T NECESSARY WITH LRT SYSTEMS, THIS WHY THEY ARE MUCH CHEAPER TO BUILD AND MAINTAIN!
Step 5. First test trains, check physical clearances. Assess hardware and software integration. Higher speed tests are next and after a certain amount of testing is complete, whatever Transport Canada and the B.C. Ministry of Transportation have historically required, regular operations begin but monitoring must continue.
THIS ISNT A SIMPLE PROCESS, I REALLY WISH IT WAS!
Zwei replies: This week Translink is on the stump for more money and I was actually allowed to talk to a reporter on radio but all he said, TransLink told him it wasn’t a big deal. I tried to explain the need for larger radius switches but he did not comprehend.
like is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPFHD6P1hK0
Replacement Frog switch is under the rail replacement program. Replace the running rails, rail pads and Switches. No Mention of replacing the reaction rail or third or fourth rail. Skytrain in operation only been one instance of 1 fail(Switch 47) in service. Replacing 4 switches at king George. Switch 56-59. And the Switch 1-6 in waterfront will be getting new motors on March 30th.
Skytrain switch map used for reference: https://dennistt.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/skytraintrack.pdf
2008 Report SkyTrain upgrades mention replacement and upgrade of switches to allow for a greater speeds for them. Expo Line focus on switch upgrades at terminal stations and short turn stations.
Pocket tracks adequate day to day operations. Recommended Original *10-15 kmh to new maximum switch speed 20-30 kmh*.(I don’t remember the exact number.)
Well as you are not an engineer and Mr. Cow is, I will take his word over yours any-day. The switch replacement program was first mentioned back in 2019 and now to increase capacity larger radius switches must be used. This means major reconstruction of the guideway to allow a larger radius switch. Until you understand track geometry, I would take anything said by TransLink with a grain of salt.
The problem that you and your folks at TransLink are trying to hide is cost because the cost of the Expo Line extension is rapidly increasing and TransLink’s revenue stream is diminishing, hence the fare increases. TransLink is fudging on the cost of the extension as now only the guideway to langley will be $4.01 billion, with the track, OHE and stations as add-ons (still in negotiation). This means the cost will be at least $4.5 billion, without the OMC#5.
There are serious problems with the Broadway subway with subsidence and with concrete now topping $450 m/3, costs will only rise.
There are many other issues, but until the provincial election is over, I believe Eby will can this project, especially in the wake of the North shore $4 billion water treatment facility fiasco.
The Expo Line Extension to Langley is being planned strictly to get votes in the riding rich Surrey and Langley, other than that it makes no economic sense.
Mr haveacow say: steps of how they replace a switch.
I Post video Link of how skytrain maintenance crew replace the switch at Gateway station. Switch Number 50,51,52,53. You see remove the old switch and rails. Install high-speed switch like Mr haveacow said Last year. You can tell because the switch is longgated by 2 to 3 Meters longer. Compared to the previous switch, if you remember what that looks like. 2019 was the new signal system and operation center.(do COVID Implementation of increasing frequencies have been put off). Rail replacement program started in 2014 average 3 kilometers new rail each year + replacement of switches.
Please do not confuse programs or dates or work-related to the any project all can be confused reader/public of wrong information. I hope it’s not intentional wrong information?
It is obvious the person who calls his/herself legoman has never replaced a railway switch in his life. We are not talking Marklin Trains here, but a real railway switch.
If greater radius switches are used, means longer switches and that is a big headache for your track department as many issues tend to cascade down the track. Everything has to be precise and if not done properly, especially with your light metro system, problems will surface affecting operation.
It is so easy sitting in your armchair, offering a video here or some dubious information there, without really understand the issues involved.
As I read the item, they are closing the station for six weeks, which tells me some serious engineering is taking place. At home, our railway engineers can replace a mainline rail bridge in just over 48 hours, yet it is taking 6 weeks to replace a switch? Obviously much more is being done.
No I haven’t done any rail maintenance in my life. I don’t mean to copy or repeat with someone’s already answered the question. Clearly you didn’t read the article stating that they are doing simultaneous upgrades and maintenance to the station.
@Legoman, I did read the article. It’s what they aren’t saying that’s important.
You can’t make a turnout (switch) 2 to 3 metres longer without changing the angels of both the 3rd rail and the induction rail (4th rail).
Having worked with the CPR, in Toronto’s Agincourt Yard, actually doing track work, with the TTC in the subway, doing track work and as a student Lineman, on the streetcar network and as part of track work team at a railway museum (where everything had to be done by hand because in most cases we just didn’t have the heavyweight equipment that real railways have), it’s just simpler, cheaper and faster to tear out everything and rebuild in carefully managed steps.
The article mentioned cabling needing to be replaced. You can’t do that very easily, unless you tear out most of the track infrastructure first. You can see with the provided picture how little room there is to work with. You can’t leave sections of 3rd or 4th rail in place, if you are moving 100 to 110 pound rail segments around. That means every yard (3 feet) of rail segment weighs 100 to 110 lbs. Usually 10 yard long track segments at a minimum, for turnouts (the railways never went metric, they just use metric equivalents for old imperial distances). That means each track segment weighs in excess of 1000 lbs. Pieces of 3rd and 4th rail are going to get damaged during the construction process if you leave them around. They aren’t going to use giant spools of ribbon rail or have great big rail laying construction vehicles laying this down these turnouts. It’s in too tight a space, most of it will be very small maintenance vehicles or hand held equipment. Not to mention a whole lot of thermite welding or what used to be called “hot pot welding”.
I just heard privately (the person works for TransLink) that the Switch replacement program is going to be very costly and management is literally at its wits end, trying to figure how to fund it. They need several billions just to to do necessary maintenance to keep the lines operational.
The person also also said there are problems with the MK.5’s in that they need a lot more specialized maintenance and are problematic to work on. The person indicated that Alstom is none too responsive and basically told TransLink; “you wanted them and now you have them, live with it.”
Evidently it is a very touchy subject and the person’s read is that Alstom want to wash their hands of the system and there is a rumour that they may sell it to CRRC, to recoup loses.
He actually works for them, I wonder which department? He (I’m assuming it’s a he anyway) seems to know the content of the program but not the actual details of the process. This is a common problem with legacy rail systems do you build outwards (system expansion), build upwards (more service) or repair, improve and or upgrade what already exists . Especially when you don’t really have enough money to do one thing fully!
Zwei replies: I see him at funerals as his older brother is my age! Far too many funerals lately. He is retiring in a year and a half and he is “glad of it”!
I just caught that, the CRRC! That’s not a good look for Vancouver with China screaming about invading Taiwan!
I have always found with TransLink employees, the truth comes out after retirement. My neighboor is a retired bus driver and some of his stories are just hair raising. We both buy and sell vintage trains, as well. he is a Lionel person and I am a Marklin/ROKAL person.