The Dundee Circulator – The Affordable Tram, a Template for Broadway?
The following was sent to us by our friends in the UK.
What should be of extreme interest is the low cost for the proposed Dundee tram compared to the sky high costs for light rail from TransLink!
The example of the 13.5 km Portland streetcar is of great interest as the costs break down as thus:
- Rail, electrical and street workAi?? …….. USD$35.1m – CAD$38.94m
- Maintenance facility …………………… USD$4m – CAD$4.43
- Trams (5 +s pares) ……………………… USD$11.3m – CAD$12.53
- Utility works (only in swept path) …. USD$3.8m – CAD$4.21
- MiscellaneousAi?? ………………………….. USD$0.4m – CAD$0.44
Total………………………………………………….USD$54.6m – CAD$60.5(approximate)
LR Dundee Circulator Dec 13 v 28 (2)
If we look at a 20 km BCIT to UBC LRT, tram or streetcar, we could build an economy tram/streetcar line far cheaper than what TransLink proposes, with a multi billion dollar subway.
The following are adjusted costs for an economy LRT operation from BCIT to UBC, via Willingdon, Lougheed Hwy., Broadway, 10th Ave. and University Blvd.
Signalling: Line of sight through out, except for the single track section to BCIT, and priority signalling for intersections, and local signals for switches & crossovers.
Start up capacity: 5 minute headways (12 trips per hour) – approx. 3,000 pphpd. Capacity can be increased by adding by using longer trams or adding more trams. Capacity West of Commercial Drive can be increased by short turning trams at Broadway Station.
- Rail, electrical and street work: Approximately CAD$120m for 18.5 double track & 1.5 km for single track (from Lougheed hwy to BCIT). Note, supports and span wires are already in situ from Broadway and Boundary Road to University Boulevard.
- Maintenance facility: Approximately $25 million, based on fleet size.
- Trams: 25 modular trams and spares with a design capacity of 250 persons: Appropriately $125 million based on current vehicle cost.
- Utility works (only in swept path): $25 million.
- Miscellaneous: $50 million, based on contingencies.
- Single track rail bridge across the Number 1 Hwy.: $75 million.
Total cost ………………………………………………………… CAD$420 million.
Let us add another $80 million contingency and an economy BCIT to UBC tram streetcar, with basic HOV lane with rails reserved rights-of-ways over 50% of its route; with stops every 500m to 600m (except Lougheed Hwy & BCIT sections); and priority signalling should cost about $500 million!
This is not, by any means scientific, but we also must remember that the route would be seen as a reinstatement of the original streetcar line and all major utilities, sewer and water are located under the gutter lanes on Broadway. Most of the route is straight, making it easy for pre-fab track and station installation. What a BCIT to Broadway tram would do is replace most buses that operate on Broadway, greatly reducing the operating costs on the route.
I already hear the howls of shock and disbelief now as the SkyTrian Lobby and the LRT nay-sayers (mostly subsidized by TransLink) running in circles claiming that this will sour the milk: kill and maim thousands of people; destroy business along Broadway and more. The fact is, we can build an economy LRT/tram line far cheaper than what the City of Vancouver and Translink claim.
Trams are perfect for Vancouver where the median commute is just five kilometres. Trams are faster than sky train for most commuters in Vancouver.
In 2011, there were 530 (possibly 700 now in 2014 according to my source) highly paid union workers employed to operate just the Expo Line and Millennium Line (sky train). They even receive hefty pensions which two-thirds of Canadians don’t:
http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Labour-Industry/2011/04/13/Skytrain-employees-ratify-three-year-deal/
What happened? Where are the cost savings with sky train?
If the Expo Line and Millennium Line were ground based transit, such as trams, instead, back of the envelope calculations show that trams might require about 250 drivers and maybe another 50 support staff. Ground based transit would have cost a pittance compared with the sky train lines to build and would have reduced the pay-roll by up to 400 employees!
More funding for the top guns at TransLink? I don’t think so.
PS
TransLink isn’t just run by losers. TransLink is run by double-lozzers – double “z”.
You don’t reward lozzers with more funding for being stupid and doing a bad job. Automated sky train is supposed to be cheap to operate. Sky train is driverless and reduces operating costs, says TransLink.
Hardly.
Missed a major cost though signal priority systems need to install equipment at each signaled intersection. Most basic systems cost between $ 750,000 – $ 1,600,000 per lighted intersections plus software and service packages up to $ 15,000,000. The yearly licensing fee anywhere from $ 2-5,000,000 a year depending on the system chosen. Training packages for staff anywhere from $ 200,000- 350,000 + a copyright fee of who knows, $ 15,000-60,000 a year. Point is that its those little details that end up killing you. The European Union has rules and limits on what can be charged for stuff like this North America doesn’t. Europe has rules about how much and what part of these contracts you can charge and sue for, we don’t. Anywhere from 10-25% of North American contracts can cover fees and possible litigation measures and if you attempt to change that here they call it being undemocratic. Here it is assumed it is your god given right to sue for anything where Europe has very tight controls on this aspect of business. It works well for them until there is a problem!
Zweisystem replies: Rules can change and must change. In BC we once drove on the left, not any more. Railways once had cabooses, not any more. As technology and equipment improves, the rules must change. One wonders if anti transit/tram rules are in place to further the sale of proprietary transit systems like Skytrain. One crew freight trains were once unheard of, but not any more. Rules for trams/streetcars will change when demand warrants.
Oh yes, I would have to check but, I remember Transport Canada has rules about overhead infrastructures for streetcars and LRV ‘s being shared with trolley buses and its pretty involved.
Zweisystem replies: The trolleybuses along Broadway would be removed.
One more thing I have to go, those priority signal systems costs are just the equipment not installation.
Zwei & Haveacow, I’ll verify what the convention and policy in Europe is as far as Trams & Streetcars `sharing ‘ the OHL with Trolleybuses is and advise you.
The cities of Athens, Budapest, Bergen, Brno, Bucharest, Riga, Salzburg & Tallinn have both Tram & Trolleybus systems
I am a bit groggy today so it is possible I am missing something but I think the Dundee folks accidentally doubled the initial route length of the Portland system. The costs are close to what Wiki shows for the initial segment US $57 million but the route length is more than the expanded system (minus the Eastsise connector). I think they failed to realize it is mainly single track loop and doubled the length to get route km. Hope they were not basing their costs on that….
Zweisystem replies: the costs have been adjusted.
Still groggy but I don’t see the adjusted numbers?
The numbers in your article have not been adjusted.
Zwei replies: The numbers have adjusted and checked and vetted by a transit specialist. I remind you, this is for an economy tram line.
Well Rico, if you’re still feeling groggy, I suggest you stop posting dumb comments on the the web, and tuck yourself up in bed with a glass of warm milk and your teddy bear
Perhaps I was over estimating your honesty (or intelligence but I do think you are intelligent so…). Or maybe I was just not clear enough (although rereading it seems clear enough)…..I will break it down. The original section of the Portland Street car is a loop. One way distance is 6.3km. This means route kms is 6.3km not the 13km quoted above. If you are using the numbers above to infer costs (a dubious method) like it appears you did many components will be double what you budgeted because the cost per km is double. Or I suppose you could just single track the 18.5km….lol.
Zwei replies: The cost was adjusted for double track. I would like to remind you that in Helsinki, it costs about $6 million/km to install tram track (2 lines) and overhead, the costs are in line. You are trolling again.
@Rico
The Portland tram cost $16 million / km and the RAV Line (Canada) cost $100 million / km which does not include the cost of the buses operating in parallel to the crappy RAV Line which I have never ridden. This is documented in an apples to apples comparison by professor Patrick Condon (Figure 6-10):
http://www.sxd.sala.ubc.ca/8_research/sxd_FRB06_tram.pdf
Your comments are the most stupidest, even if it is not grammatically correct to say so. Thanks for the entertainment. What difference does it make whether the route is linear or circular? I’m thrilled that you are a sky train proponent, because only someone as mildly retarded as Gordon Price, Jerry Dobrovolny, Geoff Meggs or you can be.
How can it possibly be less expensive to raise a train 10 metres onto concrete supports or to bury it 10 metres below grade than to run trams at grade? Are you completely daft?
Moreover, where are the operating cost savings with sky train? In 2011, there were 530 (possibly 700 now in 2014 according to my source) highly paid union workers employed to operate just the Expo Line and Millennium Line (sky train). They even receive hefty pensions which two-thirds of Canadians don’t:
http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Labour-Industry/2011/04/13/Skytrain-employees-ratify-three-year-deal/
What happened? Where are the operating cost savings with sky train? This does not include the cost of the extra bus drivers to get to transit users to the sky train stations – hundreds.
If the Expo Line and Millennium Line were ground based transit, such as trams, instead, back of the envelope calculations show that trams might require about 250 drivers and maybe another 50 support staff. Ground based transit would have cost a pittance compared with the sky train lines to build and would have reduced the pay-roll by up to 400 employees. TransLink is saving money with sky train and is attracting drivers with sky train? F.
Travel speed used to justify sky train only comes into play when the commute takes longer than 30 minutes which is the threshold distance before you start losing transit commuters to cars or driving commuters to transit – the bladder effect for commuters in general.
Travel speed is a red herring unless the commute takes longer than 30 minutes and few commuters commute longer than 30 minutes here. Idiots who approved the original sky train line and all other sky train lines didn’t understand this phenomena (still don’t) which is known as the Marchetti effect or phenomena:
“Marchetti showed that Berlin’s expanse grew according to a simple rule of thumb: the distance reachable by current technologies in thirty minutes or less. As travel speeds increased, so too did the distance traversable and the size of the city.”
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121018-hidden-rules-of-human-progress/4
http://www.cesaremarchetti.org/archive/electronic/basic_instincts.pdf
So, drivers who can drive to work or school in gridlock in 30 minutes or less and who only commute about 7 km on average in Metro Vancouver are not taking crappy sky train costing a fortune and making SNCL a bundle to cater to the 25% of the commuters traveling long distances. At the same time, sky train forgoes 75% of the commuters who only travel short distances and who might use transit if sky train (and rapid buses requiring bus transfers like sky train) were replaced with trams.