I find it more than interesting that our hugely expensive rapid transit system once again fails in the snow.
Oh, the excuses are many but TransLink, the Minister of Transportation and the premier will never admit to the fact that our SkyTrain light metro system just isn’t up to scratch in adverse weather.
Even the Canada Line splutters along in snow and ice, yet scores of tramways operate with little problems in the snow, with a good examples everywhere.
What is more than galling is that TransLink with the provinces nod, is extending the Expo line to Langley, where it is known to snow a lot.
TransLink gets another big FAIL this week, but no one seems to care!
A Karlsruhe TramTrain in deep snow in the countryside.
TransLink asks people to avoid non-essential travel during the current winter storm warning in effect for Metro Vancouver, Dec. 23, 2022. Photo: @translink/Twitter
Friday morning (Dec. 23) TransLink issued a statement saying that extra staff has been working overnight to ensure public transit across Metro Vancouver can keep moving.
However, in the past few hours, ice build-up on SkyTrain’s guideway has caused multiple track issues and significant service disruptions. There is extra staff working to clear the issues but TransLink strongly advises customers to avoid travel at this time.
The Expo Line is currently halted while de-icer trains run through the system and multiple stations are closed, including Braid, Sapperton, Scott Road, Gateway, Surrey Central, and King George.
The Millennium Line is experiencing delays and there is no service currently between Lougheed and Burquitlam stations.
On the Canada Line there is no service between Bridgeport and Richmond–Brighouse stations. And there is also no service from Templeton to YVR–Airport.
Travellers to YVR are able to catch an airport shuttle from Templeton station.
TransLink says that the Coast Mountain Bus Company is re-routing bus resources to try and move people who are affected by SkyTrain disruptions.
With a winter storm warning in effect, people who must take Transit are warned to expect delays and build in extra travel time.
People can track their buses and see SkyTrain service updates on TransLink’s Trip Planner and on Twitter. You can also sign up for customized Transit Alerts for your route.
TransLink’s snow plan for severe weather is in effect and they promise they are in constant communication with each regional municipality to advise which roads and routes should be prioritized for plowing and clearing.
More…………
SkyTrain Expo Line service suspended amid Vancouver ice storm
Inclement weather has caused the suspension of operations on Metro Vancouver’s Expo Line SkyTrain, according to TransLink.
The transit provider had warned ahead of the winter storm that riders should be prepared for considerable delays. In an update Friday afternoon, TransLink said service on the Expo Line had been suspended. The Millennium and Canada lines were also experiencing delays.
TransLink said bus bridges were in effect between Columbia and King George stations, as well as between Joyce and Metrotown stations.
The Millennium Line was not running between Lougheed and Burquitlam stations, and the Canada Line had no service between Bridgeport and Richmond-Brighouse stations, nor between Templeton and YVR Airport, the agency said.
An airport shuttle was operating between Templeton Station and the airport, according to TransLink.
The transit provider blamed the delays and shutdowns on “ice build-up” on SkyTrain guideways.
“We are doing everything possible to resume service as quickly as possible, but our strong advice to customers is to avoid travel at this time,” it said in a statement.
TransLink said de-icer trains were being run through the system, and bus operator Coast Mountain Bus Company was rerouting buses to help people affected by SkyTrain disruptions.
On Thursday, as it prepared for the storm, TransLink said it had activated its snow plan and brought in extra staff.
Metro Vancouver was under a winter storm warning Friday as heavy snow was forecast to give way to freezing rain and then heavy rain.
Environment Canada warned that ice-clogged storm drains and melting snow made localized flooding “likely” as temperatures warmed Friday evening and Saturday.
The storm caused the closure of the Port Mann and Alex Fraser bridges due to concerns about ice bombs dropping onto vehicles.
The weather also extended travel woes at YVR, with 146 flights cancelled as of Friday morning, and further cancellations expected throughout the day.
The problem in Portland is well known and is more of a politcal issue than a snow and ice issue. simply put, Portland does not have snow removing vehicles or flangers or snow brooms to remove snow and ice from the rails (same as TransLink) because the politicians refuse to budget for them (unlike TransLink where automatic operation makes it difficult and expensive.)
The big problem is snow and ice accumulating in the flangeways which push up the wheels thus breaking the electrical circuit. This problem arises in the downtown and level crossings. In the past 4 or 5 car trains were used to clear the flangeways and retain the electrical circuit. It is strictly for budgetary reasons that it is cheaper to shut down the system, inconveniencing customers, than to clear the snow and ice from the track.
The people I am in contact with, despair at this, but American politics are such, where billions are spent on infrastructure, a pittance is spent on maintenance and operation.
Vancouver’s issue is that the Movia automatic Light metro system has endemic issues in snow and ice, due to very bad design and the Linear Induction Motors and continually extending the proprietary light metro in full knowledge that the damn thing doesn’t work in ice and snow is just not fool hardy, but criminal.
The comment by “flourtownbrown” which IP address is from Bensalem, Pennsylvania (USA) is a taste of the many trolls who like to comment with terms like moron or worse.
There is a big difference between a transit system that by design, make it very problematic to operate in snow and ice, than a transit system that is so starved of funding that they do not have the right appliances to keep the operation open in snow and ice. Portland operating authority refuses to but the equipment needed to keep the system operating, yet in Europe, tram operators do have the equipment and bring them into operation the few days or weeks each year to keep the rights-of-way clear for revenue operation.
Ziew a bunch of bus systems in BC fully shut down from snow. As a province we refuse to winterize which is where the issue really lies. You’re so blinded by your hate of SkyTrain you can’t think rationally. You never name contacts probably because they’re just voices in your head. You’ve actively harmed advocacy for rail in the Fraser Valley with how hell blent you are against Skytrain.
Zwei replies: I do not release the names of those I consult with for several reasons, the first being, it is off the record and what they say may not be politically acceptable and retribution happens. I know the comments by the Siemens chaps with the RAV/Canada Line came back to haunt them with Ottawa’s first aborted LRT scheme. A lot of federal bureaucrats, abetted by BC bureaucrats blackballed them.
When it comes to transit projects, Canada is a very small market and being black balled can cost someone their livelihood.
I never mentioned buses, just issues with the trains and sadly for Translink, an internationally recognized problem with the mode is that the LIM’s are prone to snow and ice damage and with ice, TransLink has had the experience back in the 80’s of a then called ALRT car derail because the build up of snow, then ice under the LIM lifted the bogie or truck off the rails.
The second issue is that the crazies start sending those quoted spam Emails and worse. Why do I use the avatar Zweisystem, because I go tired of the crazies phoning me a 3 am to tell me I am………………….
Like ok I was a little too harsh in the first comment, but I want regional rail into the Fraser Valley and it’s disheartening to see a so called advocacy group waste so much time fighting against an existing system instead of doing solid things like pushing for a West Coast Express expansion or regional scale rail. People find this site, see the name is wrong, and then are turned off entirely from the cause.
Montreal just built a light metro similar to the Canada Line. One of the big differences is it has platform screen doors which means the track intrusion sensors are less sensitive than SkyTrain’s 80s tech needs to be. The REM will show that it’s just BC not winterizing enough and not an inherent flaw out an automated light metro system
Zwei replies: We are currently spending around $11 billion extending the Skytrain light metro system a mere 21.7 km. There is no money for Valley rail and there is no money for the E&N, as the light metro system is sucking up the cash. As long as we keep building with light metro, kiss good bye to any other transit project in the province. It is as simple as that.
As I stated at the very first, back in 2009, you want a regional passenger service for the Valley, you must put a wooden stake through Skytrain. I still stand by this and history is proving me correct.
What carries more water, one 50 foot garden hose or five 10 foot garden hoses? Obviously the five 10 foot garden hoses carry fives as much water as the 50 foot garden hose, just to different places. The 50 foot garden hose represents regional transit transporting people long distances, if you will, and the five 10 foot garden hoses represent local transit transporting people short distances. Virtually everyone travels short distances that suit local transit. Almost nobody uses public transit to go long distances. Very few commuters are willing to waste time commuting from Surrey to Vancouver, for instance, every day on regional transit. You could question the sanity of these people. So, what’s up with all the money spent on regional transit in Vancouver?
Streetcars or trams used in Finland and hydrogen buses are for local transit with stops spaced no more than about 400 metres apart. They are economical and perfectly suited for Vancouver, also, as this post suggests. How is it that the so-called journalists in Vancouver are not all over the politicians and “engineers” who’ve saddled Vancouver with the abomination euphemistically referred to as “sky” train?
Trains in the sky oxymoronically named sky-trains are being put below ground at an extra and immense cost in subways because sky-train’s masterminds discovered too late after billions of dollars was spent on the sky-train fiasco that bird-droppings, snow and ice on the tracks above ground result in system failures. Sky-trains for regional transit have stops typically spaced 1,000 metres to 3,000 metres apart. They are hard to reach and infested with degenerates, homeless drug addicts, and customers of the social workers and TransLink employees who exploit junkies to make their six figure salaries. Drug cartels would be on the ass of the social workers and TransLink employees if they did anything to ruin the business of the drug cartels. No chance of any social worker or TransLink employee losing sleep over another death of a homeless person on drugs and if you understand human psychology, people care about themselves first and foremost. There is a parasitic relationship between the social workers-TransLink employees, the drug cartels and the homeless junkies. The homeless addicts hang out in tents near regional transit stops (stations) doubling as drug trading centres. This suits the homeless junkies just fine and attracts drug addicts from all over Canada for the good life in Vancouver. Want to ruin your community? Regional transit. Wonder how Vancouver crime has “skyrocketed”? “Sky-train” by TransLink: the agent of the drug cartels.
Operating costs for public transit can be slashed by one tram replacing six buses and bus drivers, for instance. However, public transit in Vancouver is a welfare program to put bus drivers on the government payroll. In Vancouver, trains in the sky are spaced miles apart. Buses are needed to transfer transit users to the sky-trains and keep buses on the road. Most buses and trains for regional transit run around with few to no passengers most of the day. They hamper traffic. Empty buses and trains for regional transit take no cars off the roads. Enough small talk:
Engineers failed to take into account the noise impacts from the construction of the subway along Broadway for regional transit in Vancouver, Canada. They are bunglers who’ve blundered in the selection of the subway which has resulted in excessive noise at 86 dB harming the public. They’ve demonstrated unskilled practice which is grounds for the engineering association in BC to investigate once a complaint is filed. Go after these engineers to halt the subway along Broadway if you want to end the tragedy that has befallen Vancouver under the grip of the drug cartels and BC NDP perpetuating this with more “sky” train.
Happier New year! Onnellisempaa uutta vuotta! Thank you for the stories on this excellent website and writing about what the media in Vancouver dare not touch !! Thank you for countering the propaganda by the kowtowing reporters at the CBC, Daily Hive Vancouver and all the others !!
TransLink and its 8 operating companies does not have any extra staff. Transit Unions tell me that all together they are short of at least 500 staff. The pay overtime rates for some current staff to work extra shifts but the solution is to to have more staff.
Zwei Replies: It is even worse than you claim. Again i have been told that vital repairs to the light metro system have been shelved to after the Broadway subway opens!
Montreal’s REM was built by the Caisse Du Depot and is more of an financial instrument than a transit system\. In fact REM has ruined Montreal’s chances for an affordable rail transit and I can assure you in the coming years, affordable will be back in fashion for transit projects. Montreal will find out very soon that automatic light metros do not operate well in snow or in winter for that matter. I can guarantee you the first winter after REM opens there will be calls for a public inquiry into the project.
All European tramways in Northern Europe have special snow removal vehicles and/or snow plows/brooms, etc. Even cities in the more southern latitudes will have a plow in the barn, just in case.
All first generation streetcar and interurban lines in North America had snow plows and snow brooms.
We are puzzled by the lack of such apparatus today but we are lead to believe that union agreements with city workers unions prohibit the use of plows by transit companies.
Portland has always had a problem with freezing rail, first with the overhead not properly tensioned for ice and latterly, ice buildup in flange ways causing operational havoc. There are special cars designed to both de-ice, plow and rid the flange way of ice and one wonders why transit authorities have not purchased one.
Third rail electrical pick up has its own problems but such systems have been in operation since the early 1900’s and one would assume that special devices were used to prevent ice build up.
New light metro lines, all the rage with politicians, seem especially prone to disruption with ice and snow and is one of the reasons that light metros have fallen out of favour with most tending to be proprietary and plows and other such vehicles have to be custom made to fit with the light metro operational parameters, which can be very costly..
Hi @island boy, this one the voices in Zwei’s head talking to you.
1. I have been doing Urban Planning consulting on my own and have been directly employed by consulting firms since I graduated with a degree in Urban Planning back in the early 1990’s. I have worked in multiple countries, on several continents doing Transportation Planning (including but not exclusively transit planning ). Zwei is correct that this industry has a very long memory, something that you will find in most professions in Canada, hence why I use an online avatar myself. Most transit and transportation planners and engineers have to sign NDA’s (non disclosure agreements) when working on projects, you will never here them complain openly about certain technologies, they and me, don’t want to be sued!
2. The Skytrain like our Transitways in Ottawa ( our famous BRT Busway’s marketing name)had to be sidelined so rail transit could be built. I, along with a small group plucky individuals, most of whom, are very much smarter people than I, helped to create the original diesel O-Train, which opened in 2001 (now known as the Trillium Line or Line 2 & 4). Zwei, is the way he is because there is an institution bias in both your local governments and press towards the Skytrain, just like we had here in Ottawa towards our Bus Transitways. It’s what they know and are familiar with. Just like Ottawa you had a sense of the fact that this rapid transit technology helped define your city.
Unfortunately, the Skytrain is really just a very poorly thought out redesign of a very small and low capacity Light Metro. Just like, our Transitways are roads exclusively designed for use by only buses, they aren’t really a defining characteristic of Ottawa but many thought they were because they were useful and many built fortunes and careers around them. A physically segregated, 2 lane road network I might point out that, is designed mostly to rail standards (curves and slopes) with 4 lanes at the stations. But like Vancouver’s Skytrain, has out lived its usefulness as your and our rapid transit systems grew outward.
3. Skytrains are useful and have moved a lot of passengers, just like our Transitways have but they have fundamental flaws in the operation and design, which will ultimately limit their usefulness elsewhere as the network expands. The Skytrain technology costs up to 3 times as much per km to build compared to LRT in Canada but don’t carry 2 to 3 times as many passengers as LRT, regardless of what Translink’s poorly designed and executed environmental assessments say (EA’s).
LRT can be put on grade separated rights of way too and move more passengers than Skytrain, just as fast. The EA’s that Translink put out only measured small 2 car surface LRT trainsets, against Skytrains running in tunnels and on above grade, physically segregated viaducts. Sure if you compare it that way LRT will always loose to Skytrain because the Skytrain is running on a superior right of way. There is no rule that says LRT can’t run in tunnels or on above grade rights of way, like the Skytrain does. They do in many, many other cities in Canada and around the world. The fact that LRV’s (Light Rail Vehicles) can also run on a surface road (either in physically segregated curb or median road lanes) where Skytrain legally can’t due to Transport Canada legally defining it as a “Light Metro”, so no surface running is possible. Unless, it’s in its own very expensive physically segregated right of way. Requiring a level of physical segregation far more than LRT requires (making just the simple construction of it more expensive than LRT).
Many of Skytrain’s future lines just won’t be built because the technology makes them too expensive to build vs. the number of passengers it will carry. For example, a tunneled Toronto subway line costs roughly 15% -25% more to build than a tunneled Skytrain line on average but easily moves twice the number of passengers in the same amount of time and the subway infrastructure is heavier and designed to last far longer than Skytrain’s infrastructure.
This is one reason why Zwei keeps making the argument that so much should be spent on the Expo Line maintenance and upgrades, instead of a $4.5 Billion line extension to Langley. An extension that will move fewer passengers the first few years than the 99 bus did before the pandemic. The original 1986 Expo Line infrastructure is wearing out quickly. This is why Zwei always adds an extra $2 to $3 billion in his cost estimates (his $11 Billion spent on Skytrain comments). The original Expo Line needs major upgrades to just keep running at top capacity or to expand its rather weak passenger capacity. Much of the costs haven’t even been fully budgeted yet. The $2 – $3 Billion estimate comes from me. I have done this for years and I’m pretty accurate when it comes to this. It will also take many years to do these upgrades.
3. The Linear Induction Motors of the Skytrain make the operating cost a lot higher than standard LRT technology. I would love to show you the real costs but I can’t, it is considered proprietary information and I can be sued by Alstom if I do it and someone finds out its me. I used to work for Bombardier, the LIM propulsion units were often a deal-breaker when trying to sell the system to other cities. Although they don’t have a drive shaft, like standard electric motors, they do have many moving parts, such as multiple cooling fans, which break down. The magnets are very susceptible to a change in distance from the induction rail caused by debris, snow or ice on the induction rail themselves. The motors don’t last any longer than the far cheaper and ubiquitous, electric “Can” motors. They have a slower acceleration on average of 1.0 – 1.1 metres per second squared, compared to 1.3-1.4 metres per second squared for standard electric LRV motors. They are frankly, as defined by one of the former heads of maintenance for Translink, ” a very expensive and real pain in the ass to maintain, compared to standard electric motors”.
As defined by federal law, after so many km’s (as defined by the network’s operating certification) each self powered rail vehicle has to be brought into the shop and have its motors removed and inspected, whether there is a problem or not. This is relatively simple with standard electric train motors because they sit on the outward facing side of the truck or bogie frame, visible to everyone. The Skytrain technology requires that each truck or bogie be physically removed from the vehicle frame, usually by a crane and remove the LIM units which are located in the dead centre of the bogie itself and must be removed by a seperate hoist. It’s time consuming, requires more staff and requires specially designed and expensive testing equipment only provided by the single builder, in this case Alstom’s LIM Propulsion Unit supplier (yes, Alstom, formerly Bombardier don’t even build the LIM units themselves). Where standard electric motors can be tested with a digital multi-metre, available from any retail electronics store or the Source (formerly Radio Shack).
4. In conclusion, Skytrain is just a very complicated and relatively expensive EMU (electrical multiple unit) that is very costly to maintain vs other simpler more easily available rail transit technologies. In many ways, the Skytrain technology scales very poorly and like most things in government, if it costs too much to build or maintain vs other technologies that are just better suited, more efficient or simply, more easily available, it will and should be put aside for now. Try something else like LRT or Regional EMU/DMU. As Zwei says, only 7 of these train systems have been installed in the last 40 years, if it is so good why only 7 systems?
I would add that only Vancouver and Kuala Lampur have bought more than a single generation of vehicle. Only Vancouver plans to buy more of them. Two of the seven systems, Detroit and Scarborough will be taken out of service by 2032, Scarborough’s replaced by a subway extension in 2030 and Detroit’s cars are expected to be taken out of service by 2032 or sooner. For now, Detroit isn’t replacing their system with anything. This is a recipe for high cost replacement vehicles because nobody other than Alstom has a compatible design ready to go. I’m sure other builders can design one but it’s not cheap to design and build a special purpose design from scratch, for a single customer. On top of that, the Skytrain or Movia technology was one of Bombardier’s vehicle lines, Alstom has very little interest in updating the design, especially when it competes directly with 2 designs Alstom already owns and one of those designs, is actually being happily purchased by customers at the moment.
When you put the cost to build Skytrain at 3 times that of LRT, is that an ‘apples to apples’ comparison?
For example, is it when LRT is also on a separated guideway, offering similar (or better!) capacity, frequency and speed. So the essential difference is LIM vs ‘can’ propulsion and respective requirements?
The only place I read that Skytrain LIM is more expensive to operate and especially to maintain is you and Mr Zwei on this blog. Meanwhile, I see lots of academic sources who state otherwise, e.g., this 2021 article in a European engineering journal by a Prof Palda:
“The efficiency of the LIM is lower than that of the equivalent rotary machine, but, when the motors are compared as integrated constituents of the broader transportation system, the rotary motor’s efficiency advantage diminishes entirely….LIM-based urban transport has proven to be, by far, the least expensive in terms of operations and maintenance (including the energy costs). (https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/14/9/2549).
Why the difference, notably with observers independent of a Skytrain lobby?
You say the LIM has “many moving parts”. Other than the cooling fans (which are not really part of the LIM per se) what are these parts? How can a conventional ‘can’ motor subject to constant friction outlast what is basically a big hunk of iron?
How does automatic train control factor into your cost comparisons? I want unionized workers operating the trains, but the claim is that automatic control reduces total costs. I presume you ignore Mr Zwei’s silly claim that the Skytrain attendants are excluded from its numbers. But automatic control requires separate guideways, so what would you say is its weight compared to the ‘LIM vs. Can’ factor when comparing total operating costs?
Interesting…that Alstom does not produce LIMs. So much for the Bombardier-now-Alstom ownership of LIM patents as the basis for “Skytrain is proprietary”.
Zwei replies: On que, Bill B. enters to add is bit of nonsense.
In 2014, the Expo and millennium Line had 537 SkyTrain operators, attendants, dispatchers, office and maintenance staff, not including non unionized management staff. That is one hell of a lot of workers for two light metro lines. Just pre covid that number was considerably higher.
Again bill, you do not get it, Alstom now has the the MALM patents and the interface of LIM and vehicle. No other company has this, which really says, that the MALM system is proprietary. From all accounts, the SkyTrain light metro system costs about 60% more to operate than conventional systems the same size. Those 537+ employees wages are a huge cost. No one is interested in the system Bill, it is a museum piece, get over it.
I must remind you that the LIM’s used on the MALM system are “attractive LIM’s” and as such, pose a lot of problems. One being, an Attractive LIM must be about 1 cm above the reaction rail for optimum service and that is both very expensive to maintain and is prone to damage from debris on the reaction rail.
A railway rail, when one counts wear of rail and wheel of 1 cm to 1.5 cm over time, maintaining the demanded 1 cm gap becomes maintenance intensive and very expensive. It also means all the cars must have equal use and equal maintenance. The reaction rail itself will need expensive maintenance over time as well to maintain the 1cm air-gap.
The other issue is how the LIM affects the truck geometry and the MK.1 and 2 cars have fully steerable trucks, which again are high maintenance and high cost.
The original advertising for LIM’s stated that they should be considered for transit lines with steep grades as LIM trains were non adhesion but that was a man of straw issue as trams were already climbing grades as steep as 15%. In Lisbon, venerable trams still climb grades as steep as 13.9%. If my memory serves me correct, Montreal once had a streetcar route with 14% grades.
The big problem, which the SkyTrain Lobby will not admit to is that, to quote an English engineer some time ago; “you just do not slap a pair of LIM’s on a passenger car and expect it to operate”.
Here lies the issue of being proprietary, it is the technology for the interface on LIM’s, the trucks and cars (and the cars must be designed as light as possible) that is proprietary and a closely guarded secret. It is why no one has an “off the shelf” vehicle that is compatible with the now called MALM Lines.
I know you won’t believe me as you read your “Tom Swift” stories, but I just print what the experts have told me. but again, only 7 of the proprietary light metro systems have been sold; with 2 involved with bribery criminal cases; one was so expensive and poorly designed that the American government withdrew it s grants and subsidies for construction,; one was built to steal technology and two, soon to be abandoned. The Ford Edsel had a far better track record.
Mr. Havacow, this is a response to your paragraph beginning with “As defined by federal law…” that I received back from a Skytrain verhicle technician who retired a couple of years ago after about 25 years in this job:
“Wrooong!!!
A LIM removal doesn’t require a truck or “bogie” removal.
A lim can be dropped onto a lift in the pit in app fifteen minutes!
Also to figure out if a lim is shorted can be done in ten minutes using a standard multimeter by loosening three cables!
In my time there was no km program to remove lim’s.Removed when found faulty only,and that was rare.
I don’t know where these people get their info,but it is mostly wrong.
Winter of 91-92 caused a lot of Lim’s to short out due to massive wet snowfall.After that there was a program to get all the Lim’s “dipped “. in liquid insulation.This took care of the problem.It is true the “dipping “ process was not possible to do “in-house “and I’m sure Alstom made a nice profit doing that.Perhaps these very knowledgeable,”not” people could dig up the “accounting dirt” on that.Hopefully come up with something that’s actually factual!
Somehow I doubt it based on their spiel so far.”
He also commented that “There are two Lim’s per car,if one malfunctions,the other takes over and can propel the train at normal speed.The on-board computer senses a Lim malfunction immediately and sends a message to Control.At earliest convenience the train would be brought in.Although one can propel the train,it is not advisable long term.
Something for your little club to ponder.”
Zwei replies: Mr. cow will probably type an answer but rereading what Mr. Cow said;
“As defined by federal law, after so many km’s (as defined by the network’s operating certification) each self powered rail vehicle has to be brought into the shop and have its motors removed and inspected, whether there is a problem or not.”
Mr. Burgess, you have not read the quote properly. All trains must be inspected and with the fully steerable axle truck, I would wager more inspections must be made than with a standard truck or bogie.
The nature of the LIM means it will operate if one of the two LIM’s on the train fails, but there is a caveat, if LIM’s start failing on several cars, the speed the train can travel at is severely impacted. BC Transit found there were many issues with the LIM motor and why they really wanted LRT for the Broadway Lougheed Rapid Transit Project, until the NDP were bought off by SNC Lavalin and Bombardier.
Your rant has no merit; not factual, and really a gasp from the SkyTrain Lobby.
@ Mr. Bill Burgess: relax. Your sophistry isn’t convincing.
Trains from Chilliwack to Vancouver are for dual passenger and freight transport rather than for regional transit which results in urban sprawl for some planner of public transport to live in Coquitlam and take regional transit to 12th Avenue and Cambie Street to pull on his dick or shove a dildo in between her legs all day. The planners for regional transit are a massive cost to taxpayers. Do away with them and their regional transit, and taxpayers funding dick pullers and dildo users are all better off.
We can provide free public transit on trams and electric or hydrogen buses, instead, to carry five times what regional transit can transport at one-half the cost of regional transit. Vancouver is the perfect city to walk or cycle. If you are a lazy sloth who wants to take regional transit: move to Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal.
What are you doing in Metro Vancouver? People like you want people who aren’t leeches of society to pay for regional transit. No.
That’s nice to know the 3 cables and a multimeter feature got added to Bombardier’s LIM system, that comes from the LRT department by the way. It didn’t exist in 1991 or 1992, it was added in the early 2000’s. You still have to remove the truck though. It’s part of the inspection regime. The liquid insulation system has to be reapplied monthly (every 10,000 km -20,000 km, I believe), it doesn’t last long in a wet environment. According to my sources, it was largely dropped by the B.C. Rapid Transit Company when the new plastic and carbon fibre protective panels were added, due to cost and environmental issues with the liquid.
Comment back to me in response to Mr. Havacow’s latest above:
“Yeah,what do I know?for over twenty five years dropped Lim’s in order to do axle and wheel changes. I must have been doing it wrong all this time,not removing the trucks/bogies!
I will no longer waste my time with these people.Total misinformation ,Total waste of time!”
Zwei replies: Just to let you know I know and have talked to two former BC Transit managers who were fired by TransLink after its creation when they refused to defer maintenance on the light metro system. I have talked to actual engineers who worked with the LIM system and how, despite claims otherwise, were maintenance hogs. You may have been maintaining those lIMs, other than what was/is recommended.
The other big issue is that how other transit customers who have rejected LIM powered trains, even when Bombardier were offering LIMs free. The late Des Turner who amassed a mountain of information on LIM’s and LIM powered trains with the conclusion, they were problematic in operation and the track and reaction rail needs constant maintenance. There is a reason, no one wants the damn thing.
Again, you’re a freakin moron
https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2022/12/trimet-temporarily-suspends-all-max-light-rail-service-friday-morning-due-to-icy-weather.html
Zwei Replies: And a merry Christmas to you!
The problem in Portland is well known and is more of a politcal issue than a snow and ice issue. simply put, Portland does not have snow removing vehicles or flangers or snow brooms to remove snow and ice from the rails (same as TransLink) because the politicians refuse to budget for them (unlike TransLink where automatic operation makes it difficult and expensive.)
The big problem is snow and ice accumulating in the flangeways which push up the wheels thus breaking the electrical circuit. This problem arises in the downtown and level crossings. In the past 4 or 5 car trains were used to clear the flangeways and retain the electrical circuit. It is strictly for budgetary reasons that it is cheaper to shut down the system, inconveniencing customers, than to clear the snow and ice from the track.
The people I am in contact with, despair at this, but American politics are such, where billions are spent on infrastructure, a pittance is spent on maintenance and operation.
Vancouver’s issue is that the Movia automatic Light metro system has endemic issues in snow and ice, due to very bad design and the Linear Induction Motors and continually extending the proprietary light metro in full knowledge that the damn thing doesn’t work in ice and snow is just not fool hardy, but criminal.
The comment by “flourtownbrown” which IP address is from Bensalem, Pennsylvania (USA) is a taste of the many trolls who like to comment with terms like moron or worse.
There is a big difference between a transit system that by design, make it very problematic to operate in snow and ice, than a transit system that is so starved of funding that they do not have the right appliances to keep the operation open in snow and ice. Portland operating authority refuses to but the equipment needed to keep the system operating, yet in Europe, tram operators do have the equipment and bring them into operation the few days or weeks each year to keep the rights-of-way clear for revenue operation.
Ziew a bunch of bus systems in BC fully shut down from snow. As a province we refuse to winterize which is where the issue really lies. You’re so blinded by your hate of SkyTrain you can’t think rationally. You never name contacts probably because they’re just voices in your head. You’ve actively harmed advocacy for rail in the Fraser Valley with how hell blent you are against Skytrain.
Zwei replies: I do not release the names of those I consult with for several reasons, the first being, it is off the record and what they say may not be politically acceptable and retribution happens. I know the comments by the Siemens chaps with the RAV/Canada Line came back to haunt them with Ottawa’s first aborted LRT scheme. A lot of federal bureaucrats, abetted by BC bureaucrats blackballed them.
When it comes to transit projects, Canada is a very small market and being black balled can cost someone their livelihood.
I never mentioned buses, just issues with the trains and sadly for Translink, an internationally recognized problem with the mode is that the LIM’s are prone to snow and ice damage and with ice, TransLink has had the experience back in the 80’s of a then called ALRT car derail because the build up of snow, then ice under the LIM lifted the bogie or truck off the rails.
The second issue is that the crazies start sending those quoted spam Emails and worse. Why do I use the avatar Zweisystem, because I go tired of the crazies phoning me a 3 am to tell me I am………………….
Like ok I was a little too harsh in the first comment, but I want regional rail into the Fraser Valley and it’s disheartening to see a so called advocacy group waste so much time fighting against an existing system instead of doing solid things like pushing for a West Coast Express expansion or regional scale rail. People find this site, see the name is wrong, and then are turned off entirely from the cause.
Montreal just built a light metro similar to the Canada Line. One of the big differences is it has platform screen doors which means the track intrusion sensors are less sensitive than SkyTrain’s 80s tech needs to be. The REM will show that it’s just BC not winterizing enough and not an inherent flaw out an automated light metro system
Zwei replies: We are currently spending around $11 billion extending the Skytrain light metro system a mere 21.7 km. There is no money for Valley rail and there is no money for the E&N, as the light metro system is sucking up the cash. As long as we keep building with light metro, kiss good bye to any other transit project in the province. It is as simple as that.
As I stated at the very first, back in 2009, you want a regional passenger service for the Valley, you must put a wooden stake through Skytrain. I still stand by this and history is proving me correct.
What carries more water, one 50 foot garden hose or five 10 foot garden hoses? Obviously the five 10 foot garden hoses carry fives as much water as the 50 foot garden hose, just to different places. The 50 foot garden hose represents regional transit transporting people long distances, if you will, and the five 10 foot garden hoses represent local transit transporting people short distances. Virtually everyone travels short distances that suit local transit. Almost nobody uses public transit to go long distances. Very few commuters are willing to waste time commuting from Surrey to Vancouver, for instance, every day on regional transit. You could question the sanity of these people. So, what’s up with all the money spent on regional transit in Vancouver?
Streetcars or trams used in Finland and hydrogen buses are for local transit with stops spaced no more than about 400 metres apart. They are economical and perfectly suited for Vancouver, also, as this post suggests. How is it that the so-called journalists in Vancouver are not all over the politicians and “engineers” who’ve saddled Vancouver with the abomination euphemistically referred to as “sky” train?
https://www.electrichybridvehicletechnology.com/news/buses-commercial-vehicles/skoda-launches-hydrogen-powered-city-bus.html
https://youtu.be/dca5IT4JEiE?t=136
Trains in the sky oxymoronically named sky-trains are being put below ground at an extra and immense cost in subways because sky-train’s masterminds discovered too late after billions of dollars was spent on the sky-train fiasco that bird-droppings, snow and ice on the tracks above ground result in system failures. Sky-trains for regional transit have stops typically spaced 1,000 metres to 3,000 metres apart. They are hard to reach and infested with degenerates, homeless drug addicts, and customers of the social workers and TransLink employees who exploit junkies to make their six figure salaries. Drug cartels would be on the ass of the social workers and TransLink employees if they did anything to ruin the business of the drug cartels. No chance of any social worker or TransLink employee losing sleep over another death of a homeless person on drugs and if you understand human psychology, people care about themselves first and foremost. There is a parasitic relationship between the social workers-TransLink employees, the drug cartels and the homeless junkies. The homeless addicts hang out in tents near regional transit stops (stations) doubling as drug trading centres. This suits the homeless junkies just fine and attracts drug addicts from all over Canada for the good life in Vancouver. Want to ruin your community? Regional transit. Wonder how Vancouver crime has “skyrocketed”? “Sky-train” by TransLink: the agent of the drug cartels.
Operating costs for public transit can be slashed by one tram replacing six buses and bus drivers, for instance. However, public transit in Vancouver is a welfare program to put bus drivers on the government payroll. In Vancouver, trains in the sky are spaced miles apart. Buses are needed to transfer transit users to the sky-trains and keep buses on the road. Most buses and trains for regional transit run around with few to no passengers most of the day. They hamper traffic. Empty buses and trains for regional transit take no cars off the roads. Enough small talk:
Engineers failed to take into account the noise impacts from the construction of the subway along Broadway for regional transit in Vancouver, Canada. They are bunglers who’ve blundered in the selection of the subway which has resulted in excessive noise at 86 dB harming the public. They’ve demonstrated unskilled practice which is grounds for the engineering association in BC to investigate once a complaint is filed. Go after these engineers to halt the subway along Broadway if you want to end the tragedy that has befallen Vancouver under the grip of the drug cartels and BC NDP perpetuating this with more “sky” train.
https://vancouver.citynews.ca/video/2022/05/18/its-maddening-vancouver-broadway-subway-construction-noise-affects-neighbours/
TransLink. Scum. Crooks.
Happier New year! Onnellisempaa uutta vuotta! Thank you for the stories on this excellent website and writing about what the media in Vancouver dare not touch !! Thank you for countering the propaganda by the kowtowing reporters at the CBC, Daily Hive Vancouver and all the others !!
TransLink and its 8 operating companies does not have any extra staff. Transit Unions tell me that all together they are short of at least 500 staff. The pay overtime rates for some current staff to work extra shifts but the solution is to to have more staff.
Zwei Replies: It is even worse than you claim. Again i have been told that vital repairs to the light metro system have been shelved to after the Broadway subway opens!
Montreal’s REM was built by the Caisse Du Depot and is more of an financial instrument than a transit system\. In fact REM has ruined Montreal’s chances for an affordable rail transit and I can assure you in the coming years, affordable will be back in fashion for transit projects. Montreal will find out very soon that automatic light metros do not operate well in snow or in winter for that matter. I can guarantee you the first winter after REM opens there will be calls for a public inquiry into the project.
All European tramways in Northern Europe have special snow removal vehicles and/or snow plows/brooms, etc. Even cities in the more southern latitudes will have a plow in the barn, just in case.
All first generation streetcar and interurban lines in North America had snow plows and snow brooms.
We are puzzled by the lack of such apparatus today but we are lead to believe that union agreements with city workers unions prohibit the use of plows by transit companies.
Portland has always had a problem with freezing rail, first with the overhead not properly tensioned for ice and latterly, ice buildup in flange ways causing operational havoc. There are special cars designed to both de-ice, plow and rid the flange way of ice and one wonders why transit authorities have not purchased one.
Third rail electrical pick up has its own problems but such systems have been in operation since the early 1900’s and one would assume that special devices were used to prevent ice build up.
New light metro lines, all the rage with politicians, seem especially prone to disruption with ice and snow and is one of the reasons that light metros have fallen out of favour with most tending to be proprietary and plows and other such vehicles have to be custom made to fit with the light metro operational parameters, which can be very costly..
Hi @island boy, this one the voices in Zwei’s head talking to you.
1. I have been doing Urban Planning consulting on my own and have been directly employed by consulting firms since I graduated with a degree in Urban Planning back in the early 1990’s. I have worked in multiple countries, on several continents doing Transportation Planning (including but not exclusively transit planning ). Zwei is correct that this industry has a very long memory, something that you will find in most professions in Canada, hence why I use an online avatar myself. Most transit and transportation planners and engineers have to sign NDA’s (non disclosure agreements) when working on projects, you will never here them complain openly about certain technologies, they and me, don’t want to be sued!
2. The Skytrain like our Transitways in Ottawa ( our famous BRT Busway’s marketing name)had to be sidelined so rail transit could be built. I, along with a small group plucky individuals, most of whom, are very much smarter people than I, helped to create the original diesel O-Train, which opened in 2001 (now known as the Trillium Line or Line 2 & 4). Zwei, is the way he is because there is an institution bias in both your local governments and press towards the Skytrain, just like we had here in Ottawa towards our Bus Transitways. It’s what they know and are familiar with. Just like Ottawa you had a sense of the fact that this rapid transit technology helped define your city.
Unfortunately, the Skytrain is really just a very poorly thought out redesign of a very small and low capacity Light Metro. Just like, our Transitways are roads exclusively designed for use by only buses, they aren’t really a defining characteristic of Ottawa but many thought they were because they were useful and many built fortunes and careers around them. A physically segregated, 2 lane road network I might point out that, is designed mostly to rail standards (curves and slopes) with 4 lanes at the stations. But like Vancouver’s Skytrain, has out lived its usefulness as your and our rapid transit systems grew outward.
3. Skytrains are useful and have moved a lot of passengers, just like our Transitways have but they have fundamental flaws in the operation and design, which will ultimately limit their usefulness elsewhere as the network expands. The Skytrain technology costs up to 3 times as much per km to build compared to LRT in Canada but don’t carry 2 to 3 times as many passengers as LRT, regardless of what Translink’s poorly designed and executed environmental assessments say (EA’s).
LRT can be put on grade separated rights of way too and move more passengers than Skytrain, just as fast. The EA’s that Translink put out only measured small 2 car surface LRT trainsets, against Skytrains running in tunnels and on above grade, physically segregated viaducts. Sure if you compare it that way LRT will always loose to Skytrain because the Skytrain is running on a superior right of way. There is no rule that says LRT can’t run in tunnels or on above grade rights of way, like the Skytrain does. They do in many, many other cities in Canada and around the world. The fact that LRV’s (Light Rail Vehicles) can also run on a surface road (either in physically segregated curb or median road lanes) where Skytrain legally can’t due to Transport Canada legally defining it as a “Light Metro”, so no surface running is possible. Unless, it’s in its own very expensive physically segregated right of way. Requiring a level of physical segregation far more than LRT requires (making just the simple construction of it more expensive than LRT).
Many of Skytrain’s future lines just won’t be built because the technology makes them too expensive to build vs. the number of passengers it will carry. For example, a tunneled Toronto subway line costs roughly 15% -25% more to build than a tunneled Skytrain line on average but easily moves twice the number of passengers in the same amount of time and the subway infrastructure is heavier and designed to last far longer than Skytrain’s infrastructure.
This is one reason why Zwei keeps making the argument that so much should be spent on the Expo Line maintenance and upgrades, instead of a $4.5 Billion line extension to Langley. An extension that will move fewer passengers the first few years than the 99 bus did before the pandemic. The original 1986 Expo Line infrastructure is wearing out quickly. This is why Zwei always adds an extra $2 to $3 billion in his cost estimates (his $11 Billion spent on Skytrain comments). The original Expo Line needs major upgrades to just keep running at top capacity or to expand its rather weak passenger capacity. Much of the costs haven’t even been fully budgeted yet. The $2 – $3 Billion estimate comes from me. I have done this for years and I’m pretty accurate when it comes to this. It will also take many years to do these upgrades.
3. The Linear Induction Motors of the Skytrain make the operating cost a lot higher than standard LRT technology. I would love to show you the real costs but I can’t, it is considered proprietary information and I can be sued by Alstom if I do it and someone finds out its me. I used to work for Bombardier, the LIM propulsion units were often a deal-breaker when trying to sell the system to other cities. Although they don’t have a drive shaft, like standard electric motors, they do have many moving parts, such as multiple cooling fans, which break down. The magnets are very susceptible to a change in distance from the induction rail caused by debris, snow or ice on the induction rail themselves. The motors don’t last any longer than the far cheaper and ubiquitous, electric “Can” motors. They have a slower acceleration on average of 1.0 – 1.1 metres per second squared, compared to 1.3-1.4 metres per second squared for standard electric LRV motors. They are frankly, as defined by one of the former heads of maintenance for Translink, ” a very expensive and real pain in the ass to maintain, compared to standard electric motors”.
As defined by federal law, after so many km’s (as defined by the network’s operating certification) each self powered rail vehicle has to be brought into the shop and have its motors removed and inspected, whether there is a problem or not. This is relatively simple with standard electric train motors because they sit on the outward facing side of the truck or bogie frame, visible to everyone. The Skytrain technology requires that each truck or bogie be physically removed from the vehicle frame, usually by a crane and remove the LIM units which are located in the dead centre of the bogie itself and must be removed by a seperate hoist. It’s time consuming, requires more staff and requires specially designed and expensive testing equipment only provided by the single builder, in this case Alstom’s LIM Propulsion Unit supplier (yes, Alstom, formerly Bombardier don’t even build the LIM units themselves). Where standard electric motors can be tested with a digital multi-metre, available from any retail electronics store or the Source (formerly Radio Shack).
4. In conclusion, Skytrain is just a very complicated and relatively expensive EMU (electrical multiple unit) that is very costly to maintain vs other simpler more easily available rail transit technologies. In many ways, the Skytrain technology scales very poorly and like most things in government, if it costs too much to build or maintain vs other technologies that are just better suited, more efficient or simply, more easily available, it will and should be put aside for now. Try something else like LRT or Regional EMU/DMU. As Zwei says, only 7 of these train systems have been installed in the last 40 years, if it is so good why only 7 systems?
I would add that only Vancouver and Kuala Lampur have bought more than a single generation of vehicle. Only Vancouver plans to buy more of them. Two of the seven systems, Detroit and Scarborough will be taken out of service by 2032, Scarborough’s replaced by a subway extension in 2030 and Detroit’s cars are expected to be taken out of service by 2032 or sooner. For now, Detroit isn’t replacing their system with anything. This is a recipe for high cost replacement vehicles because nobody other than Alstom has a compatible design ready to go. I’m sure other builders can design one but it’s not cheap to design and build a special purpose design from scratch, for a single customer. On top of that, the Skytrain or Movia technology was one of Bombardier’s vehicle lines, Alstom has very little interest in updating the design, especially when it competes directly with 2 designs Alstom already owns and one of those designs, is actually being happily purchased by customers at the moment.
Mr. Haveacow:
When you put the cost to build Skytrain at 3 times that of LRT, is that an ‘apples to apples’ comparison?
For example, is it when LRT is also on a separated guideway, offering similar (or better!) capacity, frequency and speed. So the essential difference is LIM vs ‘can’ propulsion and respective requirements?
The only place I read that Skytrain LIM is more expensive to operate and especially to maintain is you and Mr Zwei on this blog. Meanwhile, I see lots of academic sources who state otherwise, e.g., this 2021 article in a European engineering journal by a Prof Palda:
“The efficiency of the LIM is lower than that of the equivalent rotary machine, but, when the motors are compared as integrated constituents of the broader transportation system, the rotary motor’s efficiency advantage diminishes entirely….LIM-based urban transport has proven to be, by far, the least expensive in terms of operations and maintenance (including the energy costs). (https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/14/9/2549).
Why the difference, notably with observers independent of a Skytrain lobby?
You say the LIM has “many moving parts”. Other than the cooling fans (which are not really part of the LIM per se) what are these parts? How can a conventional ‘can’ motor subject to constant friction outlast what is basically a big hunk of iron?
How does automatic train control factor into your cost comparisons? I want unionized workers operating the trains, but the claim is that automatic control reduces total costs. I presume you ignore Mr Zwei’s silly claim that the Skytrain attendants are excluded from its numbers. But automatic control requires separate guideways, so what would you say is its weight compared to the ‘LIM vs. Can’ factor when comparing total operating costs?
Interesting…that Alstom does not produce LIMs. So much for the Bombardier-now-Alstom ownership of LIM patents as the basis for “Skytrain is proprietary”.
Zwei replies: On que, Bill B. enters to add is bit of nonsense.
In 2014, the Expo and millennium Line had 537 SkyTrain operators, attendants, dispatchers, office and maintenance staff, not including non unionized management staff. That is one hell of a lot of workers for two light metro lines. Just pre covid that number was considerably higher.
Again bill, you do not get it, Alstom now has the the MALM patents and the interface of LIM and vehicle. No other company has this, which really says, that the MALM system is proprietary. From all accounts, the SkyTrain light metro system costs about 60% more to operate than conventional systems the same size. Those 537+ employees wages are a huge cost. No one is interested in the system Bill, it is a museum piece, get over it.
I must remind you that the LIM’s used on the MALM system are “attractive LIM’s” and as such, pose a lot of problems. One being, an Attractive LIM must be about 1 cm above the reaction rail for optimum service and that is both very expensive to maintain and is prone to damage from debris on the reaction rail.
A railway rail, when one counts wear of rail and wheel of 1 cm to 1.5 cm over time, maintaining the demanded 1 cm gap becomes maintenance intensive and very expensive. It also means all the cars must have equal use and equal maintenance. The reaction rail itself will need expensive maintenance over time as well to maintain the 1cm air-gap.
The other issue is how the LIM affects the truck geometry and the MK.1 and 2 cars have fully steerable trucks, which again are high maintenance and high cost.
The original advertising for LIM’s stated that they should be considered for transit lines with steep grades as LIM trains were non adhesion but that was a man of straw issue as trams were already climbing grades as steep as 15%. In Lisbon, venerable trams still climb grades as steep as 13.9%. If my memory serves me correct, Montreal once had a streetcar route with 14% grades.
The big problem, which the SkyTrain Lobby will not admit to is that, to quote an English engineer some time ago; “you just do not slap a pair of LIM’s on a passenger car and expect it to operate”.
Here lies the issue of being proprietary, it is the technology for the interface on LIM’s, the trucks and cars (and the cars must be designed as light as possible) that is proprietary and a closely guarded secret. It is why no one has an “off the shelf” vehicle that is compatible with the now called MALM Lines.
I know you won’t believe me as you read your “Tom Swift” stories, but I just print what the experts have told me. but again, only 7 of the proprietary light metro systems have been sold; with 2 involved with bribery criminal cases; one was so expensive and poorly designed that the American government withdrew it s grants and subsidies for construction,; one was built to steal technology and two, soon to be abandoned. The Ford Edsel had a far better track record.
Mr. Havacow, this is a response to your paragraph beginning with “As defined by federal law…” that I received back from a Skytrain verhicle technician who retired a couple of years ago after about 25 years in this job:
“Wrooong!!!
A LIM removal doesn’t require a truck or “bogie” removal.
A lim can be dropped onto a lift in the pit in app fifteen minutes!
Also to figure out if a lim is shorted can be done in ten minutes using a standard multimeter by loosening three cables!
In my time there was no km program to remove lim’s.Removed when found faulty only,and that was rare.
I don’t know where these people get their info,but it is mostly wrong.
Winter of 91-92 caused a lot of Lim’s to short out due to massive wet snowfall.After that there was a program to get all the Lim’s “dipped “. in liquid insulation.This took care of the problem.It is true the “dipping “ process was not possible to do “in-house “and I’m sure Alstom made a nice profit doing that.Perhaps these very knowledgeable,”not” people could dig up the “accounting dirt” on that.Hopefully come up with something that’s actually factual!
Somehow I doubt it based on their spiel so far.”
He also commented that “There are two Lim’s per car,if one malfunctions,the other takes over and can propel the train at normal speed.The on-board computer senses a Lim malfunction immediately and sends a message to Control.At earliest convenience the train would be brought in.Although one can propel the train,it is not advisable long term.
Something for your little club to ponder.”
Zwei replies: Mr. cow will probably type an answer but rereading what Mr. Cow said;
Mr. Burgess, you have not read the quote properly. All trains must be inspected and with the fully steerable axle truck, I would wager more inspections must be made than with a standard truck or bogie.
The nature of the LIM means it will operate if one of the two LIM’s on the train fails, but there is a caveat, if LIM’s start failing on several cars, the speed the train can travel at is severely impacted. BC Transit found there were many issues with the LIM motor and why they really wanted LRT for the Broadway Lougheed Rapid Transit Project, until the NDP were bought off by SNC Lavalin and Bombardier.
Your rant has no merit; not factual, and really a gasp from the SkyTrain Lobby.
@ Mr. Bill Burgess: relax. Your sophistry isn’t convincing.
Trains from Chilliwack to Vancouver are for dual passenger and freight transport rather than for regional transit which results in urban sprawl for some planner of public transport to live in Coquitlam and take regional transit to 12th Avenue and Cambie Street to pull on his dick or shove a dildo in between her legs all day. The planners for regional transit are a massive cost to taxpayers. Do away with them and their regional transit, and taxpayers funding dick pullers and dildo users are all better off.
We can provide free public transit on trams and electric or hydrogen buses, instead, to carry five times what regional transit can transport at one-half the cost of regional transit. Vancouver is the perfect city to walk or cycle. If you are a lazy sloth who wants to take regional transit: move to Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal.
What are you doing in Metro Vancouver? People like you want people who aren’t leeches of society to pay for regional transit. No.
That’s nice to know the 3 cables and a multimeter feature got added to Bombardier’s LIM system, that comes from the LRT department by the way. It didn’t exist in 1991 or 1992, it was added in the early 2000’s. You still have to remove the truck though. It’s part of the inspection regime. The liquid insulation system has to be reapplied monthly (every 10,000 km -20,000 km, I believe), it doesn’t last long in a wet environment. According to my sources, it was largely dropped by the B.C. Rapid Transit Company when the new plastic and carbon fibre protective panels were added, due to cost and environmental issues with the liquid.
Comment back to me in response to Mr. Havacow’s latest above:
“Yeah,what do I know?for over twenty five years dropped Lim’s in order to do axle and wheel changes. I must have been doing it wrong all this time,not removing the trucks/bogies!
I will no longer waste my time with these people.Total misinformation ,Total waste of time!”
Zwei replies: Just to let you know I know and have talked to two former BC Transit managers who were fired by TransLink after its creation when they refused to defer maintenance on the light metro system. I have talked to actual engineers who worked with the LIM system and how, despite claims otherwise, were maintenance hogs. You may have been maintaining those lIMs, other than what was/is recommended.
The other big issue is that how other transit customers who have rejected LIM powered trains, even when Bombardier were offering LIMs free. The late Des Turner who amassed a mountain of information on LIM’s and LIM powered trains with the conclusion, they were problematic in operation and the track and reaction rail needs constant maintenance. There is a reason, no one wants the damn thing.