How About A TramTrain Link To Abbotsford Internationl Airport
One major destination for the RftV Vancouver to Chilliwack TramTrain is the Abbotsford International Airport and having a TramTrain connections would mean YXX could be directly reached from Vancouver, Surrey,Ai??Langley, Abbotsford, and Chilliwack.
A bonus withAi??a YXX TramTrain connection would be Abbotsford’s Tradex, trade fair complexAi??would also be served by rail.
Reaching the airport could pose some problems, but by TramTrain’s very nature it could operate as a tram or streetcar on single track reserved right’s-of-way on either Vye/HuntingtonAi??Road; King or Clearbrook Road or a combination of all four, from the SRR of BC line to YXX.
Also in the area is the University of the Fraser Valley and Corrections Canada facilities, which would mean good ridership potential for a TramTrain line to YXX.
From Rail Technology Magazine
Tram-train link to airport ai???once in a lifetime opportunityai??i??
The all-party parliamentary light rail group is pushing for a tram-train link from Leeds to Leeds-Bradford International Airport (LBIA), via Horsforth.
At a meeting on Tuesday, the group outlined progress on the project to cross-party MPs, representatives from the DfT, local government, and the light rail industry.
Three local MPs are to lead a campaign to promote the proposal: Greg Mulholland MP (LibDem, Leeds North West); Alec Shelbrooke MP (Con, Elmet and Rothwell); and Gerry Sutcliffe (Lab, Bradford South).
They discussed a strategy for progressing the scheme, which was described as ai???once in a lifetime opportunity for lasting infrastructure benefitai???.
The LBIA link is currently being examined for possible inclusion in the projects to go forward within the proposed A?1bn West Yorkshire Plus Transport Fund.
Shelbrooke said: ai???The APPLRG meeting was invaluable for getting all political parties together as well as the major stakeholders to highlight the united aim we have in securing a tram-train link to LBIA for the benefit of Leeds, Bradford, West Yorkshire and the North. It is crucial we act quickly and with coordination to achieve this outcome and I look forward to leading this with Gerry Sutcliffe and Greg Mulholland in the future.ai???
A community or commuter rail line in the South Fraser Valley is a pipe dream that will never be realized.
Conceptually, you could have a line from White Rock, with other stations at: Crescent Beach, Colebrook Road, Sunshine Hills, 72nd Avenue, Nordel Way, River Road (at Grace), South Westminster, Scott Road, cross the Fraser on the old Fraser River Bridge, (dedicated to commuter rail only with a new freight bridge build further upstream for BNSF, CP and CNR) terminating in New Westminster near the ALRT Stations…as there is still land available at these proposed station sites that could include parking for 100 to 300 vehicles.
All you need is access from BNSF…something the government would never go after and never get.
Second, a line from Chilliwack, with other stations at: Chilliwack Mountain Road, Cannor, Matsqui Village, Glen Valley, Fort Langley (near Fort Langley Airport), North Langley (near 208th Street and Mitchell Road), Goldon Ears Way (near the west end of 96th Avenue), 104th Avenue at 176th Street (close to the Barnston Island Ferry), then crossing the Fraser on the Old Fraser River Bridge.
All you need is access from Canadian Northern….something the government would never go after and never get.
Third, the old BCER Line….and this one is just like the others. While working for BC Hydro in the 1980s, I researched it; 20 years later, while being a director with the Fraser Valley Heritage Railway Society, I carried out a feasibility study that would see a community railway line from New Westminster to Langley (as ridership would not sustain it going any further) with stops all through Surrey – ie, near the old BCER stops – and into Langley City, but that was 10 years ago and all the land then available for stations and parking has long gone into other development.
And, again, access from BC Hydro and Southern Rail….never in a million years. Witness FVHRS, and the 15.2 million dollar business plan that I did for them….and all they ended up getting was a 200 yard strip in Cloverdale, using part of the old BCER line through Cloverdale that is no longer needed as a new line has been built skirting Cloverdale due to the widening of Highway 10.
Bottom line….forget it. It will never happen.
Visions of a line connecting the South Fraser all the way east to Chilliwack with spurs to Abbotsford International Airport are nothing more than a pipe dream. Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts will never get her LRT off the ground….Surrey won’t be able to afford it.
Also, I did a feasibility study for the Mayor of New Westminster over 10 years ago…a streetcar line to the then proposed casino near Boundary Road at the end of the city with Richmond….never got any where. I’ve done a feasibility study of restoring 1223 (Burnaby’s BCER interurban) and 1235 (in Ottawa, in the Transportation Museum, which I visited two years ago) and running them from New Westminster to Burnaby’s Central Park….which Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan would not back…
I’ve done more feasibility studies than you can imagine….and you know the result….
Moral to the story….stop dreaming.
Zweisystem replies: I think you have missed the point. Getting the RftV/Leewood transit study to fruition does need government and bureaucratic support and at this point in time, dated 1950’s and 60’s transit planning still holds sway. SkyTrain was a child of the 1960’s grade separated monorail/light metro mentality, where the thinking of the day was that the tram or streetcar would be a historical footnote by the year 2000. It didn’t quite happen that way and the European Renaissance, which includes the TramTrain concept, has failed to reach across the pond. It will soon, because of the ever higher costs of light metro.
The RftV/Leewood study is the most up to date study done yet on regional rail and the $1 billion Vancouver to Chilliwack TramTrain, with a maximum of three trains each way per hour, using existing R-o-W’s is probably the best bang for your buck for South of the Fraser municipalities and cities. The ex interurban line does connect the Fraser Valley very well and a connection with YXX would just generate more ridership (generate more revenue).
Zwei actually talked to a SRR of BC official some years ago and the company was quite open to discuss a passenger service on the line. For the SRR of BC a TramTrain service would be a win win situation, where they would generate revenue by selling pathways for the TramTrain service, plus they could consult elsewhere (for a fee) on the subject of TramTrain service on little used or abandoned rail routes. There is a statutory right for passenger service on the old BCE RR.
What the RftV/Leewood is, is a 21st century transit study, using 21st century rail philosophy to solve a transportation problem. I think you should reread the Leewood Study and rethink your stand. The Fraser Valley needs better public transit and the RftV/Leewood study could be the backbone of a successful South of the Fraser transportation strategy.
Zweisystem replies: I think you have missed the point.
I’M SORRY TO SAY THAT I HAVE NOT MISSED THE POINT. YOU HAVE AND YOU ARE PIPE DREAMING
Getting the RftV/Leewood transit study to fruition does need government and bureaucratic support and at this point in time, dated 1950′s and 60′s transit planning still holds sway.
AND YOU WILL NEVER GET IT (GOVERNMENT SUPPORT AT ANY LEVEL OTHER THAN MORAL) AS THE LEEWOOD STUDY DOES DID NOT EXAMINE RIDERSHIP OR OPERATING COSTS. TRANSIT PLANNING IN THE LOWER MAINLAND IS DECADES BEHIND THE TIME AND WILL ALWAYS REMAIN SO. THEIR MENTALITY IS STUCK IN A TIME PERIOD AND A MODEL THAT IS NO LONGER POPULAR ANYWHERE… EXCEPT VANCOUVER.
SkyTrain was a child of the 1960′s grade separated monorail/light metro mentality, where the thinking of the day was that the tram or streetcar would be a historical footnote by the year 2000.
YES, SKYTRAIN IS A RELIC OF THE PAST BUT THE SYSTEM HAS EXCLUSIVITY WHICH TRANSIT FAVOURS. GO TO CALGARY AND ASK DRIVERS ABOUT THEIR SYSTEM….A PAIN IN THE BUTT WHENEVER CROSSING GUARDS HAVE TO COME DOWN….
It didn’t quite happen that way and the European Renaissance, which includes the TramTrain concept, has failed to reach across the pond.
YES, EXCEPT FOR A FEW PLACES LIKE PORTLAND BUT IT WILL NEVER MAKE IT HERE.
It will soon, because of the ever higher costs of light metro.
THAT MATTER WILL ALWAYS BE ATTACHED BY THE DINOSAURS AT TRANSLINK. YOU AND YOUR GROUP DO NOT HAVE THE POLITICAL SAVY NOR POWER TO CHANGE IT OR THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT’S THINKING. I KNOW. I USED TO WORK FOR THE BC LIBERALS.
The RftV/Leewood study is the most up to date study done yet on regional rail and the $1 billion Vancouver to Chilliwack TramTrain, with a maximum of three trains each way per hour, using existing R-o-W’s is probably the best bang for your buck for South of the Fraser municipalities and cities.
THE LEEWOOD STUDY WAS NOT AS COMPREHENSIVE AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN. YOUR $30,000 WAS MISSPENT. YOU NEED A $300,OOO STUDY…THREE TRAINS AN HOUR WOULD RUN YOU SO MUCH MONEY THAT THE SYSTEM WOULD NOT MAKE A PROFIT…..EVER. YOU WOULD NEED TO DOUBLE THE LINE FROM PRATT TO LIVINGSTONE….AT A COST OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. USING EXITING ROWS IS ALWAYS PREFERABLE; HOWEVER, YOU NEED SPACE FOR YOUR STATIONS AND PARKING LOTS AND ALL THE SPACES WHERE THESE COULD BE HAD HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED. YOU WILL HAVE TO GO DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE HIGHWAY.
The ex interurban line does connect the Fraser Valley very well and a connection with YXX would just generate more ridership (generate more revenue).
IT SERVED IS PURPOSE FOR PASSENGER SERVICE BUT DOES NOT ANYMORE. I HAVE NOT SEEN YOUR RIDERSHIP STUDY….I DOUBT IF YOU HAVE ONE OR THE ABILITY TO DEVELOP ONE.
Zwei actually talked to a SRR of BC official some years ago and the company was quite open to discuss a passenger service on the line.
I STARTED TALKING TO BC HYDRO, ITEL AND SOUTHERN RAILWAY OFFICIALS AS FAR BACK AS 1981 AND THEY ARE ALWAYS “OPEN TO DISCUSSION” BUT THAT IS AS FAR AS IT GOES.
For the SRR of BC a TramTrain service would be a win win situation, where they would generate revenue by selling pathways for the TramTrain service, plus they could consult elsewhere (for a fee) on the subject of TramTrain service on little used or abandoned rail routes.
ONLY IF YOU DOUBLE THE LINE FROM PRATT TO LIVINGSTONE AND THEN YOU HAVE TO FACE SOUTHERN’S DEMANDS AS THEIR FREIGHT SERVICE WOULD HAVE TO PRE-EMPT PASSENGER SERVICE AND THROUGH THE TIMETABLE OUT THE WINDOW.
SOUTHERN COULD NOT SELL ANYTHING…NO ONE WANTS TRAMS IN B.C. AND WHAT ‘LITTLE USED OR ABANDONDED RAIL ROUTES’ ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. PLEASE SHOW THEM TO ME.
There is a statutory right for passenger service on the old BCE RR.
SO. THAT IS NICE.
What the RftV/Leewood is, is a 21st century transit study, using 21st century rail philosophy to solve a transportation problem.
GRANTED LEEWOOD IS MORE UP-TO-DATE THAN THE TRANSIT BOYS BUT HE IS AN OUTSIDER AND HIS IDEAS WILL NEVER BE ACCEPTED …FOR INTERNAL POLITICAL REASONS…ONLY IF TRANSLINK COMES UP WITH THE IDEA WILL ANYTHING MOVE FORWARD. YOU DON’T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THE POLITICS OF THINGS.
I think you should reread the Leewood Study and rethink your stand.
I READ IT THE DAY IT CAME OUT. I HAVE A COPY HERE ON MY DEST. YOU NEED TO RETHINK YOUR POSITION AND LEARN ABOUT B.C. POLITICS.
The Fraser Valley needs better public transit and the RftV/Leewood study could be the backbone of a successful South of the Fraser transportation strategy.
YES, THE VALLEY NEEDS BETTER PUBLIC TRANSIT; HOWEVER THE LEEWOOD STUDY WILL NEVER BECOME THE BACKBONE OF ANYTHING HERE SOUTH OF THE FRASER WHEN IT COMES TO TRANSPORTATION STRATEGY. YOU AND MR. VISSERS ARE POLITICAL NOBODIES AND DON’T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THE GAME OF POLITICS WHEN IT COMES TO TRANSPORTATION.
One major destination for the RftV Vancouver to Chilliwack TramTrain is the Abbotsford International Airport and having a TramTrain connections would mean YXX could be directly reached from Vancouver, Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford, and Chilliwack.
AND WHAT EXISTING RIGHTS-OF-WAY WOULD YOU BE LOOKING AT BECAUSE YOUR FIRST ISSUE IS ACCESS. BNSF? SOUTHERN? YOU WILL NEVER GET IT. BNSF WOULD GET YOU FROM VANCOUVER TO NEW WESTMINSTER. SOUTHERN WOULD GET YOU TO ABBOTSFORD AND THE VYE ROAD YARDS. THEN WOULD YOU GO UPHILL TO THE AIRPORT THROUGH FARM LANDS. IT WOULD COST WAY TOO MUCH. AND WHO WANTS TO TAKE THREE HOURS TO GET TO YXX WHEN CAR CAN GET YOU THERE IN HALF THE TIME? WHAT RIDERSHIP DEMANDS HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO RESEARCH TO EVENCONTEMPLATE THE IDEA?
A bonus with a YXX TramTrain connection would be Abbotsford’s Tradex, trade fair complex would also be served by rail.
SHOW ME YOUR ROUTING, PLEASE. I KNOW EVERY INCH OF THE LAND AROUND THE YXX AIRPORT. THIS IS NOTHING BUT A PIPE DREAM.
Reaching the airport could pose some problems, but by TramTrain’s very nature it could operate as a tram or streetcar on single track reserved right’s-of-way on either Vye/Huntington Road; King or Clearbrook Road or a combination of all four, from the SRR of BC line to YXX.
YOU WILL NEVER GET ABBOTSFORD TO RELINQUISH PART OF THOSE ROADWAYS AS THEY ARE NEEDED FOR FARM DELIVERIES AND PICK UPS BY VEHICLES THAT ARE TWO WIDE TO SHARE THE ROAD WAY WITH A TRAMTRAIN.
Also in the area is the University of the Fraser Valley and Corrections Canada facilities, which would mean good ridership potential for a TramTrain line to YXX.
YOU CONTINUE TO DREAM. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH IT COSTS TO BUY LAND….AND BESIDES THERE IS NO UNOCCUPIED LANDS BETWEEN ALL THESE PLACES THAT YOU MENTION. YOU WOULD NEED TO EITHER PURCHASE THE LAND AND IMPROVEMENTS AT AN OUTRAGEOUS COST OR GET AN EASEMENT WHICH WOULD ALSO COST A PHENOMINAL SUM OR EXPROPRIATE THE LAND. WANT TO SEE HOW MUCH LAND HAS BEEN EXPROPRIATED IN SURREY, LANGLEY, ABBOTSFORD AND CHILLIWACK IN THE LAST 25 YEARS….AND SEE WHAT THE POLITICAL FALLOUT WAS.
PLEASE, GIVE UP YOUR PIPE DREAM. YOU ARE ONLY EMBARRASSINGYOURSELF TO POLITICIANS AND BUREAUCRATS AT THE CITY AND PROVINCIAL LEVEL. HOW MAY POLITICIANS DO YOU HAVE ON BOARD? RICH COLEMAN? I DOUBT IT. MIKE DE JONG? I DOUBT IT. YOU HAVEN’T EVEN GOT ANY ABBOTSFORD COUNCILLORS ON BOARD WITH YOU. SO DON’T YOU THINK YOU ARE CONTINUING TO MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELVES….YOU AND MR. VISSER.
Zweisystem replies: Your bitterness is quite evident and I wonder why? All RftV is doing is advocating for better transit and at our expense provided an affordable alternative. I do not think RftV are making fools of ourselves, quite the contrary, our position is making sense for those who realize that the status quo is not working. We give options and a sense of the future. Of course it is all political and most of the regional politicians haven’t a clue about rail transit, the real question is; “what can we build for what we can afford, a few km of SkyTrain or a Vancouver to Chilliwack tramtrain?”
Guys I do this for a living and you can never say never in politics, especially transportation politics. While a Tram-train is a long shot for the very simple reason that currently in North America you can not legally run a light transit vehicle on a active freight rail line, period. My experience with the O-Train in Ottawa is a good example of this. Both Transport Canada and DoT in the US do not want any type of these operations (Tram-Trains) on active rail lines and have stated that point publicly for varous reasons including safety. The US DoT has just completed a 30 year study of running LRT on a freight line and yes you can safely run a LRT on a freight line after all but, many railways just have no interest in this. The insurance companies also throw many a wet blanket on any proposals like this. The only way it could happen is if you run transit during the day and freight at night, period end of argument. Even then, there are still many regulatory hurdles faced by this project including, the fact that the RtfV study did not do a required property survey of ownership in and around bridges station locations as well as a utilities access study that would be required as well for the Federal Environmental Assessment Act and the Railway Act. You see the O-train in Ottawa was supposed to be a Tram-Train too. The possibility of running any kind of electric or diesel LRV type vehicle was killed very early in the process by Transport Canada.
After saying all that there is still hope because even though by the book the O-Train is licensed as a Commuter Rail Line it still runs like a diesel LRT and is currently being upgraded to increase its capacity. The O-Train was a lond shot too and yes it cannot street run like a Tram-Train because of the regulations and the fact that we had to use DMU’s (diesel multiple units) but, it can fill a big need where there is presently no service at all. Most railways especially ones like the new regional short lines (class 2 ralway operators) like SRR of BC are usually at the management level anyway, generally very supportive of things like this because it means money guaranteed in their pockets, regardless if the service makes money or not (and with transit they usuallly don’t so, why worry). However, it is true that the larger class 1 railways like BNSF, CN and CP are usually a lot less interested in these ideas because of the scale that they operate at makes small transit projects like this a hinderence to their operations not a help. The O-Train had its detractors and still does but, a line that was only supposed to move 5900 people a day presently moves 14000 (only 12 years into the service) is a sucess by most standards. Most likely, ridership will increase a great deal after its current upgrades are complete. The trick is you start small and build up. I have looked at RftV study, the basics are there the plan needs a great deal of refinement but, the basics of their idea works.
Politics are weird and funny. I can remember attending a public meeting regarding an earlier commuter rail line proposal on the same line that the O-train uses. The proposal died for varoius reasons but the basic data and information used in that study became the basis of the data for the O-Train, without this experience of earlier failure the O-train could have been argued away by the anti-rail transit pro BRT transit management that rulled this city for so long (that battle still continues today by the way). Also, a major defunding of capital budget money for transit by the province in the mid 90’s made all but the shortest and most desperately needed sections of Bus Transitway unaffordable for the then regional government. The O-Train was a way to build very cheap (8km for $40 million for a 2 year pilot project) rail lines on existing track for the then new Regional Chair. The official disinterest of most of the transit heavyweights in the local transit planning establishment meant that, outsiders basicly, Transport 2000 Canada (Now Transport Action Canada) and a few non city transit experts could create a line that was simple and was not held back by the assumptions that the local transit people at the regional government had about rail. We knew they (regional transit staff) were going to say no to this proposal anyway so a basic service was designed that was easy and cheap. Never underestimate the political capital of a project that is really cheap and has the existing staff saying that it can’t happen at that price. Especially, when you bring in outsiders in transit planning and financial people who then say that, yes it can because your inside people are making bad or incorrect assumptions and they have no professional ability to say that they are right. Mainly because, they have never built this type of service before and have spent so much effort concentrating on one form of rapid transit (BRT Transitways ) that they, have no ability to be even critical of this project due to their complete lack of relevant experience in rail projects. The fact that really shook the regional council to their core was that, we had many km’s of existing rail lines unused and in areas that might never get a bus transitway and even if it did the cost of converting a rail line to transitway was massively more than just fixing up the rail line and adding to it later. Though the odds may be long and if a line actually develops from the RftV study it may be quite different from what had been originally proposed. Never say never with politicians.
Zweisystem replies: The mainline railways definitely do not want any mixed operation with tramtrains, the current operators of the former interurban route actually would entertain mixed running, as they run only two freights a day from Abbotsford to Vancouver and maybe 3 freights a week from Abbotsford to Chilliwack. The real problem is the mixed traffic with the joint superport railway, but that can be overcome with a separate track or a diversion along the Langley by-pass. What we do not have is politicians championing our cause as most are closet SkyTrain supporters.
As I write this, their is joint passenger freight operation on the route in South Surrey, with the heritage interurban operating on the SRR of BC Line, so never is now a maybe, because it is happening.
It’s a great pity Graham that you find it necessary to take such an arrogant line, the author(s) of the RfT/Leewood study compiled their report from a minimal brief and worked with a small resource pool so that the approved budget was met.
I would ask Graham that if you are so certain of your facts, then publish your study as the RfT/Leewood team have done. I work in the industry just as you do and your assertions are incorrect
Submit your findings for a peer review, if you don’t want to put up than shut up.
A strange/wonderful thing (what my wife refers to as real cowinky dink) happened to me today. I was on a trip to Carleton University to pick up a lost item for a friend of mine on the replacement bus that is temporarily replacing the O-Train. While comlaining to a fellow passenger how long the replacement bus (OC Transpo route 107) takes to travel what the O-Train could do in 6-7 minutes and that, the whole summer long shut down was unecessary, the fellow passenger informed me that he is attending a summer confrence at Carleton and that he lives in Vancouver and works for the planning department at Trans Link. He informed me that there is a group of rail nuts in the area south of the Fraser River who want to build a LRT down there on a old streetcar line. I commented that the O-Train had the same kind of problem from the local transit planning PTB’s (Powers That Be) early on and that they were slowly convinced that, a 8km, $40 million, mostly single track rail line could in 12 years become OC Transpo’s most financially efficient line. 14,000 a day caried by a line that never has more than 2 vehicles operating on it, giving a 15 minute frequency of service all day. Also that, the new Confederation Line LRT is going to use vehicles that are just about a metre longer than the Bombardier BR 643 Talents (49 compaired to 48 metres for the O-trains). That at rush hour they intend to use 2 car trains and eventually when needed 3 car trains (147 metres for a 3 car train). I continued to tell him that O-Train is being upgraded to 7-8 minute service by adding two more passing tracks and a new fleet of Alstom DMU’s as well to add desperately needed capacity for now and the even greater capacity needed when the real heavy construction forces the closure of large parts of the existing Transitway due to the conversion to LRT ($59 million total project cost including the new DMU’s). He told me he was aware of that (it was a topic at his conference) and that he was stunned that the Confederation Line is starting with 10500 P/H/D during the peak periods and that it could go much higher once fully utilized by OC Transpo. He was amazed that Ottawa would put up with the mamoth bus jams in your downtown everyday. (his words not mine) I told him that, the jams are actually at the low end right now (7500-8500 P/H/D) because it is summer and once September hits, wow watch out. He figured out that I worked in the field and said that it was plesant to talk to a fellow planner. I said,” those nuts you talked about are probably right you know”, I can’t believe you are still using those driverless Scarborough RT’s” ( I will never in my heart call it Skytrain I grew up in Scarborough). “Well” he said, “we are stuck with them for now, besides you will never convince my bosses that something with a driver is cheaper to operate than the Skytrain”. “Please”, I said “they think that Skytrain is cheaper to operate than a simple diesel LRT like the O-Train?” “Well after I saw the interior of those new Rocket Trains in the Toronto Subway” he added,” I sent a video of an end to end walk in one of them late at night to my bosses and pointed out how many people can be moved by one train and driver compaired to the Skytrain.” He continued, “now you are telling me that, Ottawa will potentially, have a 3 car LRT train almost as long, ya, they will notice that”. I wish the conversation could have continued but he and I had to part ways upon reaching Carleton University. I Hope it helped your cause! You may have friends in odd strange places now!